The removal of junior golf exclusionary policies from golf...a BBGE mission..

[ForkaB]

John

The best thing about golf is that it is a game for all ages.

The worst thing about golf is that it is a game for all ages.

Due to the former, even geezers like you and me can pretend that we are still athletes.  Due to the latter, some of us geezers forget that we are geezers, and see juniors as annoyances rather the future of the game.

Healthy clubs develop, nurture and cherish their junior players.  Dysfunctional clubs despise, discourage and generally ignore their juniors.  They will wither and die in their dotage.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Mike,

Christian would be a great test case..this can be solved though a simple process of education and diplomacy.  The only expense would be any travel costs incurred when given permission to speak to the board of this club.  I still have no idea what club we are talking about.

If Gene decides to let us proceed would you be willing to either testify for or sign a friend of golf petition.  I havn't met Gene or Christian and will need some character profiles..

John,

Please forward to me for signature when you prepare the document, or I would be pleased to go testify, what ever makes sense from a strategic standpoint.

Rich,

Excellent post.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich,

Could you do me and golf a favor and write up a short draft for a letter requesting a club to reconsider their junior golf policy.  Just a short note to get a discussion started.  I'm gonna be away from the computer for a couple of days so have patience with my response...

[Jordan Wall]

Please forward to me for signature when you prepare the document, or I would be pleased to go testify, what ever makes sense from a strategic standpoint.

Proving once and for all golf is always[/color] a game of strategy

 

John, as I said, best of luck in your mission.

[JESII]

John,

Can you clarify your mission please? Are you hoping to remove any and all exclusionary policies, or just one pertaining to juniors playiing with an adult?

Thanks

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Can you clarify your mission please? Are you hoping to remove any and all exclusionary policies, or just one pertaining to juniors playiing with an adult?

Thanks

JES,

This is such a complicated issue with each case and junior being different that from this far away I don't think we have any choice but to initially push for play with a parent.  Like I said earlier...nobody hates kids more than me..but still nothing melts my heart like the image of a father and son walking down the fairway...any day..any time.  note:  I have never seen a mother and daughter...I can only imagine.

[tlavin]

If juniors want to play before 3 p.m. (or whatever the "exclusionary" policy is), I say send 'em down to the muni course or the fricking driving range.  Private clubs are designed for the primary use of the people who pay the downstroke and the monthly dues.  It would personally piss me off to see everybody's kid teeing off during normal members' hours.  Having exclusionary policies is exactly why most of us join a private club.  We don't want to have to put up with the first come first served policies of public golf.  The more that we curtail the exclusionary policies of private golf, the more damage we do to the ability to have private clubs.

I am aware that there are private clubs with family memberships in which the spouses and children get much more in the way of access to the golf course during prime time.  That is fine, since you know what you're getting when you join, but that is a far cry from being a member of a club where the members are given the privilege of exclusive access to the golf course during prime time only to have it taken away by the sentimentalists who long to see a father and child stroll down the first fairway at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning.

Just tell Junior to get a tee time at Muni Lakes.

[Craig Sweet]

The old "wink and nod".  Yet another example of.....something I'm sure I don't like.

I really, really love the argument that if the junior golfer is willing to pay full membership dues, then they SHOULD be able to play whenever they want, but because they AREN'T paying full membership dues, restrictions MUST apply.  

That sub-minimum wage...the "teen" wage...sure makes it difficult to come up with the scratch for that full membership. But I guess the little darlings could work hard, scrimp and save, and maybe afford the full membership before their 21st birthday. Think of the character they will build as they toil away and wait for the day when they can enjoy the course on a bright and beautiful June morning!

[Jordan Wall]

Maybe is a solution giving the oppurtunity to juniors to pay a membership fee, or add on to what a parent has to pay.

If juniors had a membershipp as well as the parents I dont think we would have such a problem, correct?

[ForkaB]

Rich,

Could you do me and golf a favor and write up a short draft for a letter requesting a club to reconsider their junior golf policy.  Just a short note to get a discussion started.  I'm gonna be away from the computer for a couple of days so have patience with my response...

Would be very please to do so, John.  It would help if I knew what the current policy was so I could argue as to what they needed to reconsider.  Let me know.

Cheers

Rich

[SL_Solow]

Barney;  It seems to me that the issue is not quite as simple as you make it and although the question is clearly OT I can't resist responding.  

I have the same feelings you do about father and son golf since my 2 favorite partners are my 79 year young Dad and my soon to be 19 year old son.  But private golf clubs are designed in large measure as places where working individuals can escape the pressure of the work place and find time to enjoy a great game.  Since they pay the bills and since for many of them their time is restricted, it is not inequitable to give them the first right to use the course at preferred times.  Otherwise, as Terry so aptly points out, the benefits of membership are significantly reduced

As to range access, the usual issue is safety.  So long as the child is mature enough to follow the rules he/she should be allowed to use the range unsupervised.  Again, common sense should prevail.  If the range is of limited size, as is the case in many older clubs, the junior should step aside for a member if there are no spaces available.  Such a policy also teaches a measure of respect and leads to better relationships between juniors and members.

Finally, junior programs should be encouraged and should focus on fundamental skills and course etiquette.  It may even be appropriate to give the pro some discretion to allow qualifying juniors to play in non junior times when the course is not too crowded.

Our club has rules similar to these.  My son grew up in our junior program and lived with these restrictions.  Fortunately he learned to play well and to respect the game.  As a result he is often invited to play with mebers ranging from those in their 20s to some in their 80s.  Its taught him a lot about the value of good manners and taught him a lot about dealing with different types of people.  All in all the restrictions have not been overly burdensome.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do strongly believe in exclusionary restrictions concerning guests...What I don't see is how Gene playing with Christian is different than playing with some hack salesman guest as far as the other players on the course are concerned.  Why can't juniors when accompanied by their parents be under the exact same rules as guests...Or is this issue really about money like so many of you to make it..I believe most clubs with full memberships exclude guest play during prime time..

I don't like to see juniors anywhere where spirits are sold and consumed...I don't have the slightest problem with keeping them out of the clubhouse all together during certain hours..that can be worked around.

[ChasLawler]

    This course is a golf club only.

I pay double dues. I'm assessed double for everything in the club.

I have a family membership. My wife doesn't play...

Well Gene - I guess that makes me the jerk. It sure does sound like you're getting a raw deal at your club

Your son sounds like a fine young man, and I'm sure the game of golf (as well as some pretty good parenting) has contributed to that.

Truth be told, I was fortunate to have parents who were members at a very junior friendly country club when I was growing up, so I can't say I'm very familiar first-hand with any prejudice toward juniors.

We had a pretty nice setup, as our club had a course in town, and then two more further out in the suburbs. Kids 7-18 years old had to take a special 2 day etiquette and skills clinic to get a Junior bag tag. Armed with this bag tag, juniors were allowed unlimited access to the in-town course and one of the suburb courses (except on Saturdays and Sundays prior to noon). There were limited times juniors were allowed on the premier course, but if we were with an adult, there were no time restrictions at all - on any course.

There are benefits at country clubs that golf clubs can't provide.

[ForkaB]

But private golf clubs are designed in large measure as places where working individuals can escape the pressure of the work place and find time to enjoy a great game.  Since they pay the bills and since for many of them their time is restricted, it is not inequitable to give them the first right to use the course at preferred times.  

Shel

That is a very slippery slope you are trying to traverse.

Are you aware that Myopia Hunt Club was founded by teenagers, who just wanted to play games?

This is a much better role model for the future of golf than the exclusionary one that you seem to have adopted.  IMHO, of course.

Rich

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich,

Could you do me and golf a favor and write up a short draft for a letter requesting a club to reconsider their junior golf policy.  Just a short note to get a discussion started.  I'm gonna be away from the computer for a couple of days so have patience with my response...

Would be very please to do so, John.  It would help if I knew what the current policy was so I could argue as to what they needed to reconsider.  Let me know.

Cheers

Rich

Rich,

Hopefully Gene will chime in with the exact policy at his club...Come to think of it...I wonder if a Father's Day event is held at this club where dads and children play together in an event that is nothing but prime time..Our society needs more father's days..for the kids sake..

[ForkaB]

John

My grandfather was a founder of Winchester Country Club's annual Father and Son tournament.  It was very much prime time (full page coverage in the Boston Herald and Boston Globe)--at least the times I played it with him in the late 50's.  I'm not sure if it still has the same cachet.

As for mothers and daughters, come up to Dornoch some day and catch a glimpse of Josie, Caitlin and Melissa playing away on the Struie.  We'll say hello to them and then go on to sort out the problems of the world in the bar.....

[John Kavanaugh]

One time during the Father's Day alternate shot tourney my 10 year son made a 15 foot downhill put to clinch us the championship...I teared up all the way back to the clubhouse as much out of relief as joy..cause I knew their was no way I was gonna make that come backer..

I know I am too much of a selfish dick to give up my weekend gambling games to play with my current 10 year old...but damnit...I shouldn't have the right to keep other fathers from being better than me..

[SL_Solow]

Gene; The question is really one of economics.  I have no problem with juniors who can keep up playing at any time and I have played with my boy as much as I can.  In fact, if you are ever travelling my way with your son you know you have an open invitation for a father son outing.  But the expense of a golf club today is such that the club has to make time available to those who pay the freight.  Unless they agree to open up the "prime times" there is little one can do.  The best practical solution is to limit the number of times that are eemed prime.  Our Father child tourney starts about 9:30 am and goes almost all day.  Rounds can be very slow but so what?

[Scott Coan]

John

My grandfather was a founder of Winchester Country Club's annual Father and Son tournament.  It was very much prime time (full page coverage in the Boston Herald and Boston Globe)--at least the times I played it with him in the late 50's.  I'm not sure if it still has the same cachet.

Rich,

It's been 25+ years since I played the Winchester Father & Son but every year it was a special treat.  My Dad was on the waiting list for so long that he forgot he was on it.  I still remember when the first invite came - he was so excited!  I was just young teenager and did not understand what the excitement was all about.  Then I got to play in the event.  Winchester is one of my all-time favorite courses and a good part of that affection is due to the Father & Son.  

[RJ_Daley]

One time during the Father's Day alternate shot tourney my 10 year son made a 15 foot downhill put to clinch us the championship...I teared up all the way back to the clubhouse as much out of relief as joy..cause I knew their was no way I was gonna make that come backer..

I know I am too much of a selfish dick to give up my weekend gambling games to play with my current 10 year old...but damnit...I shouldn't have the right to keep other fathers from being better than me..

I'm imagining that last post spoken in the Irish brogue and thinking it is the great literary tradition that stereotypes the Irish, Pater-Filius relationships.  Is this some sort of Barney blarney that ye be baitin us with, Mr. Kavanaugh?  Surely there's a reason that St. Patrick's day and April fools day are so close.

[ForkaB]

Scott

Great to hear that that the WCC Father and Son is still going strong.  It was really important to my grandfather, and a very special time for me too.  In the two years I participated he was in his mid-70's and played in the morning with one of my uncles and in the afternoon with me.  Walking all 36, of course, and grumbling all the time about how slow and soft the fairways were because all the new members "think they have the right to hit a teed-up 3 wood from anywhere!"......

Rich

[archie_struthers]

"wish I was at Indian Creek"

temp 47% wind light OCNJ


At Greate Bay we have developed some good players and wonderful kids with this format.

Can play with their parents any time

weekdays anytime at the discretion of the pro shop
(Tim Debaufre & Bill Papa, PGA Professionals have been unreal to the Juniors)

Weekends after 12 noon ( without parents)
(always at discretion of golf shop)

*juniors are free if their parents are members

juniors dues are $500 otherwise

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I think most people are letting their own ideas take over Kavanaugh's proposal. I don't think he is promoting juniors teeing off at 8 o'clock on a saturday morning while a group of members stand behind them waiting. The problem is that most clubs have times when the juniors absolutely cannot play and are very strict about it. Such policies are exclusionary in that the juniors are banned. It shouldn't be like that.

I'm a junior, and at my club we can only play at certain times. But even when time is set aside for us (Friday mornings in the summer), older members still are able to play, so long as they don't mind the slower play that the little kids cause.

I know that the older members are paying customers and should take precedent over us. I respect my elders and don't have a problem with this policy. I do have a problem with being told that I absolutely cannot play an open course.

Is it too much to imagine a junior playing behind a group of members on a saturday morning, so long as there aren't any members behind him? I think it should be unlimited play for both parties, but members should obviously have seniority over the juniors and be allowed to play in front. I don't think that this is an outrageous proposal or too much to ask.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The most progrssive policy would be titled---Course available policy---juniors can tee it up at any time when the tee is available once they have established an ability to play at a good pace of play while demonstating good etiquet and a knowlege of the rules.                                                     I grew up on a course up until age 13 that had a policy similar to the above stated.  Our club produced a CBS commentator who had a pretty solid pro career, 1975 US Junior Champ., and numerous solid low handicap players.  The juniors would show up on Sat. and Sun. mornings and putt and hit balls until the 1st tee cleared, we usually had from 2-4 groups and teed off between 9:30 and 11:30--it was different every week.  The constant was that we were a vital part of the club.  People wanted to know what the older top junior players shot that day.  Most of the juniors from this club are still very active in the game.                                             For a completely different outcome, the club I played in LA from 14-18 had very stringent junior rules.  The junior program was non-existent.  There were special junior members because of the  benevolence of the owners.  But the owners  allowed the club to independently establish governance policies as long as they did not conflict with the club's fiscal health.  The result was very few juniors and they were from parents who were very much consumed by golf.

[Gene Greco]

Healthy clubs develop, nurture and cherish their junior players.  Dysfunctional clubs despise, discourage and generally ignore their juniors.  They will wither and die in their dotage.

   Awareness of the above statement has hit home with our board this past winter and after years of nudging our efforts have not been for naught.

A junior program WILL finally be set up this summer. This is a HUGE step forward.

It won't address the needs of the four or five kids who want to excel by playing more or being allowed to hit balls on the range alone but will finally acknowledge the existence of the "other" family members.  

Our club does have a Father-Son tournament on Father's Day and has had one for many years. The kids REALLY look forward to this event.

Furthermore, boards at all golf clubs work hard and it can be a thankless job. I'm not sure if I myself would feel comfortable being the one who would deem whose kid is or is not qualified to be able to tee off during more flexible times if they were made available.Or whose kid is or isn't allowed to be at the range unsupervised. Seems this could be a real source of some hard feelings.

My son and I DO play alot at the munis in order to play during more convenient times or when the course is unavailable due to the frequent member-spouse "tournaments" which are scheduled on Fri and Sun afternoons.

You know, there are worse things in life than not being able to play as much golf as one would like.