The removal of junior golf exclusionary policies from golf...a BBGE mission..

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm starting this thread to get some brain storming ideas on how best to remove junior golf exclusionary policies that are intact at many private courses throught this country.  It is a mission that will both help the future of golf and potentially the family structure vital to a healthy society.

One of the first things we need to do is identify specific clubs with policies that need to be changed.  If you are a member of such a club and sincerely want to see change and understand the possible ramifications of being a rabble rouser..identify your club below.

The second phase is determining a course of action.  My initial thoughts are contacting the club with a letter writing campaign pointing out the flaws in their policies.

The best course of action may be leaving individual clubs out of the process and going directly to the USGA.  Why should courses that do not promote the future players of the game be allowed to host the current during USGA events.

Please continue with your own thoughts on how we can proceed with this most noble cause.

[JESII]

John

Could you give an example (not club specific) of what you mean by "exclusionary policies".

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a post from another thread that sums up an exclusionary policy..

I have lobbied (unsuccessfully) for years to have this policy at my club. Children of members can't tee off 'til 3pm and are not allowed to spend any time at the range alone.

Obviously, this policy has stunted my son's progress.

Though he is only twelve he starts on the high school golf team. The paradox is another child, also twelve, at a rival high school, is allowed to play at anytime at his club. Gives him a distinct advantage. They have competed against one another in junior tournaments and both times the competitor beat my son by three strokes over 18 holes.

Furthermore, children of GUESTS (Guests!!!!!) with payment of a full guest fee are allowed to tee off after 9:30 am while, let me remind you, my son has to wait until 3pm.

Frustration with regard to the above policies has reached an apex among the four or five other members who have children who take the game seriously not only with respect to playing ability but also with traditions and etiquette associated with the game of golf.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I have lobbied (unsuccessfully) for years to have this policy at my club. Children of members can't tee off 'til 3pm and are not allowed to spend any time at the range alone.

Is this a tyop?  You WANT this policy at your club?

[Jfaspen]

I guess this ends your string of non- OT posts John...

Personally, I don't feel this is the correct forum for such an endeavor, but I wish you luck nonetheless.

jf

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess this ends your string of non- OT posts John...

Personally, I don't feel this is the correct forum for such an endeavor, but I wish you luck nonetheless.

jf

Maybe so...but I hadn't done anything to make the game better for a while and thought it was about time..What is good for the game is good for architecture and those whose careers depend on it...Personally this task does nothing for me..

[JESII]

That's interesting John,

Is there a specific junior golf day at this particular club? That policy is similar to the policy at my club with one day being reserved for juniors until they are finished. We have a big program with close to 100 kids playing anywhere from 3 to 18 holes. Typically only a couple groups of older kids (14 - 17) play 18 holes and they go off first, then 10 - 13 year old kids tee off and play 9 holes, and then dozens of 6 - 10 yeard old kids play 3 or 5 holes depending on ability and interest. Parents usually escort the younger groups, but the first tee is closed until about noon to any other groups.

As far as your mission, don't you think each club should determine and enforce its own rules? At the same time, don"t you think the USGA should want each club to make its own rules and also be happy when any club in particular that wants to host (voluntarily) a USGA event.

[John Kavanaugh]

JES,

I don't think any club should be able to make a rule that excludes any member from playing at anytime..man, woman or child...If they meet the minimum playing and etiquette standards..Why should it possibly matter who is in the group in front, back or side of you if they do not impose an inconvenience on your day..

[ChasLawler]

Children of members can't tee off 'til 3pm and are not allowed to spend any time at the range alone.....


Furthermore, children of GUESTS (Guests!!!!!) with payment of a full guest fee are allowed to tee off after 9:30 am while, let me remind you, my son has to wait until 3pm.

Frustration with regard to the above policies has reached an apex among the four or five other members who have children who take the game seriously not only with respect to playing ability but also with traditions and etiquette associated with the game of golf.

John,
This sounds like the kind of policy that would be in place at a golf-only club -where a family membership may not be an option. If that's the case, I don't have a problem with this guy's kid being excluded. The member is probably only paying dues for himself. Perhaps he should have joined a different type of club if he was looking for full golfing privileges for his son as well.

At a country club, where family memberships are encouraged, I agree that Junior exclusionary practices should be avoided.

At the same time, and while I think your cause is noble, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to join a private club. It's up to the individual himself to his homework when seeking entry into a private club. If someone is looking for a place where their kids can play golf anytime, don't join the club where the current policy prohibits it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Cabell,

I have the right to be a good employer through laws and rules that have been passed in the last few years concerning safety and discrimination...Don't you think parents should have the same rights.  Why are children now the lowest class of human in our society...how are exclusionary practices against them so different that those against minorities and women at private clubs.  I'm not saying those clubs may not have the right to exist...I'm saying the USGA should take a stand in the same manner they did for women and minorities...Let the kid haters have their own clubs..I don't care.

In some cases the kid haters just need to be educated to the damage they are doing...

[ChasLawler]

John - if the kid pays the full going rate for initiation and dues - I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[Brad Tufts]

I think the biggest factor with junior golf at a private course is the attitude of the staff.  At our club, children under 18 must have permission of the pro shop to play.  If the player is more accomplished, they can generally play without asking during the times for the "B" member, the category our pre-jr. members fall into.  This restricts play to all monday (although often only the AM due to an outing), PM on Tues, after 3 PM on Wed-Fri, and after noon on Weekends (tee times needed from 12-2 however).  This was ok for a golf-obsessed kid like me, as after I turned 21, I had A privileges like any other member while only paying for a jr. membership.

I always complained about our lack of a solid jr. program (outside of the occasional wed. morning clinic or interclub), but looking back, it wasn't all that bad.  The worst part of it was the attitude we kids got from the asst. pros at my club.  If a rule was broken or we were trying to do something we weren't supposed to (not tucking your shirt in, wearing a hat backwards, trying to tee off at the wrong time, starting on 10 when we didn't look to see if someone was coming up #9), the staff did not treat us very well.  They might have looked at us as bratty country club kids, but a little encouragement was probably all it took to get more than me (the one kid who grew up playing there that still players at a state amateur-level) playing golf up through HS and College.

I don't think juniors are excluded from country club golf, but times should be outlined where the course is less crowded so they can explore their games without many older members nearby being concerned over why they are there.  Many of my bad experiences as a junior player were related to an older member of the club assuming i was out there to fool around or make his/her life miserable when they didn't know me at all.

If I was involved in the formative stages of a club, I would emphasize with the pro shop that when a junior comes to play the the wrong time and asks to play, the correct response is not "No" followed by silence, but "Sorry, now isnt the time set up for you to play, but you can come back tomorrow afternoon to play. (or whenever the correct time is)"  So many kids left the game at my club because they didn't feel like dealing with an asst. pro that treated them like they didn't belong.

[Sean Leary]

I play at a golf only club where there are no family memberships.   Children of Members AND guests are restricted to when they can play (and how old they need to be to play), as are spouses for that matter, but there are no restrictions for children on the range....

[John_Cullum]

....."  So many kids left the game at my club because they didn't feel like dealing with an asst. pro that treated them like they didn't belong.

That's interesting. I'm 46 years old now, and I grew up playing golf. I still remember to this day the people who treated me well when I was just a kid, and those who didn't. That sort of thing has always stuck with me, and I will go out of my way today to do a favor for someone who was nice to me when I was a kid. I regret that I have been to way to many funerals for these men and women, and I guess I'll be going to a few more. But I will never forget.

[Jin Kim]

I agree with the poster above that this is dependent on whether the child is paying full dues.  Otherwise, the burden is being shifted to those that do not have children.

[Mike Hendren]

Sarge,

Well stated and an opportunity for me to mention a bunch of men you will never know, most of whom are no longer with us:

Stuart Nunn (mailman)
Bill Harlan (ran the Ben Franklin 5 & 10)
Wimpy Reviere (ran the dry-cleaners)
Ches Hamby (town photographer)
Arthur Walker (optometrist - putted with the same Royal +6 for over 20 years)
Chick McMahon (had a hot daughter my older sister's age)
Jim Fitzhugh (banker)
Freck Pollard (insurance)
Kenneth Hawkins (high school basketball coach)
Chuck Hendren (Dad, telephone man)


These men always had time for me, a kind word and an invitation to join them.  The town hotshots always left me on the tee, but they were the guys I trounced in the club championship at the age of 16 and 18.  

The list above:  Gentle men and gentlemen.  

Mike

[David Kelly]

Why are children now the lowest class of human in our society...

At no time in our history have children had more rights given to them by society than right now.

[Jordan Wall]

John,

To me this is very interesting.  I have never really had trouble getting on at clubs over in here in Seattle--but then again I dont belong anywhere and have not had the oppurtunity to play some clubs.  I do know that for the most part getting on for juniors isnt too much of a problem however, because many of my some of my junior friends have played some of these private courses (last year my friend even got to play LACC).

What happened with your son is very wrong, IMO.  I think that clubs need to realize that juniors can be just as respectful to the course as anybody else.  If accompanied by an adult, there is almost no doubt that most juniors will not tear up a course.  I would support your campaign to let juniors play more on these private clubs, especially because of what happened to your son.

I dont want to complain, please dont take it like that, but clubs that do not allow juniors should reconsider the juniors that would be playing at their course.  I know first hand that many juniors do whatever they can to help and not trash a course when they play it.  Juniors, IMO, should be allowed to play private clubs, ESPECIALLY if they are accompanied by an adult.  If there is anything you need me to help with this junior plan then IM and I will do0 what I can.

Good luck John--I will help with what I can!

[RJ_Daley]

JK, I think your sentiment about the junior players is well meant.  But, I also agree with Cabel about the process of joining a club that clearly has junior player playing restrictions.  If the club was founded to be family friendly and then a ill tempered leadership in the committee structure began to discriminate or exclude youngsters, that is a cause worth fighting.

But, what about the kids sentiments?  Maybe they'd like to have a time when they aren't forced to be out amongst the old blue haired ladies or just would like to have their times when oldsters won't be around.

Here in GB we have an interesting situation.  There is a daily fee course that also offers junior yearly unlimitted play passes.  It is very close to the GBCC.  As I understand it, many club members buy their youngsters the unlimitted daily fee course yearly pass, and drop them off almost like a baby sitting service while they pass their time in the more adult setting of the CC.  The rap I hear is that the daily fee course is inundated with youngsters during the week and sometimes that gets annoying for older golfers because of the youthful antics of the kids on the course.

My own home course, which is a county run muni, has a junior fee that is a bargain.  But, there are time slot restrictions for the kids. So, they know what the times they can play are to take advantage of a great price.  

I think it all boils down to disclosure and caveat emptor when joining or paying golf fees.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a post from another thread that sums up an exclusionary policy..

"I have lobbied (unsuccessfully) for years to have this policy at my club. Children of members can't tee off 'til 3pm and are not allowed to spend any time at the range alone.

Obviously, this policy has stunted my son's progress.

Though he is only twelve he starts on the high school golf team. The paradox is another child, also twelve, at a rival high school, is allowed to play at anytime at his club. Gives him a distinct advantage. They have competed against one another in junior tournaments and both times the competitor beat my son by three strokes over 18 holes.

Furthermore, children of GUESTS (Guests!!!!!) with payment of a full guest fee are allowed to tee off after 9:30 am while, let me remind you, my son has to wait until 3pm.

Frustration with regard to the above policies has reached an apex among the four or five other members who have children who take the game seriously not only with respect to playing ability but also with traditions and etiquette associated with the game of golf."

I guess I need to make it clear that I was quoting someone else and no course I am a member of has a single exclusionary practice against juniors when accompanied by an adult...Some tournaments excluded.

I'm not a fan of children myself and have to admit I am surprised by the attitude of this group....I guess golf courses outside my world are just too crowded for me to understand...There can be no other reason that a father and his son can't enjoy a morning round during the week.

[ChasLawler]

John,
Accompanied by a parent is an entirely different matter.

There should never be a limitation placed on a parent playing with his or her own child.

[Gene Greco]

John,
This sounds like the kind of policy that would be in place at a golf-only club -where a family membership may not be an option. If that's the case, I don't have a problem with this guy's kid being excluded. The member is probably only paying dues for himself. Perhaps he should have joined a different type of club if he was looking for full golfing privileges for his son as well.

Cabell:

    This course is a golf club only.

I pay double dues. I'm assessed double for everything in the club.

I have a family membership. My wife doesn't play.

My son is twelve and has a low round of 77 there from the men's tees.

He takes his hat off and shakes your hand after you've holed out on 18 and says, "It's been nice playing with you."

He dresses in khakis, a clean golf shirt and polished Foot Joys every time he plays.  

He knows when it's his turn to hit and the ball is in the air before you can tell him. He doesn't take practice swings.

We've walked the course together in 2 1/2 hours - for 18 holes.

Total strangers are allowed to tee off at our club at 9:30am on Sat morning even if they hit the ball ten feet and land a piece of sod the size of a small dog twelve. He has to wait 'til 3.  

Reread the last paragraph.

I joined the club 16 years ago before my son was born and truly enjoy it except for this glaring weakness in club policy.

He has played with some of the most respected men who post on this board and each has gone out of his way to explain to me how impressed each one of them was with how my son carried himself before, during and after the round.

He has been invited by members to play at Shinnecock, National Golf Links, Maidstone, Olympic, Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula and San Francisco and has played regularly at Sand Hills since he was 9.

He removes his hat prior to entering the clubhouse for his regular post round drink - Coke with cherries.

He doesn't want to be a pro. He just loves golf.

I wouldn't allow the children to tee off with the boys on Sat morning at 7 am but I would a least give them equal billing as the guests receive - pending a blessing from the pro/starter/representative board member.

[John Kavanaugh]

Gene,

What do you want us to do to help...

[Mike_Sweeney]

Gene,

What do you want us to do to help...

John,

At any private club, the only way to change policy is internally. Externally, you are limited to public pressure or the court system. A bunch of guys on a website is not going to change much so then you are talking about ten to hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund a court case such as this, and Christian will be playing golf in the ACC for Boston College by the time it sees a court. Is the BBGE going to fund this? If not, I think the BBGE needs to shift back to focusing on the wine privledges of raters at outings. What ever happened to that Fazio Society?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Christian would be a great test case..this can be solved though a simple process of education and diplomacy.  The only expense would be any travel costs incurred when given permission to speak to the board of this club.  I still have no idea what club we are talking about.

If Gene decides to let us proceed would you be willing to either testify for or sign a friend of golf petition.  I havn't met Gene or Christian and will need some character profiles..