Centerline Bunkers

[archie_struthers]

Having had more than a few GCA alums suggest a centerline bunker to me for the last hole at Twisted Dune (which I don't agree with) lets talk this feature. Where do they work, where don't they! For instance, I love Philadelphia Cricket, but don't like the bunker thirty yards in front of the ninth green. What say you?

[Jim Thompson]

Archie,

I love central featuring regardless of its manifestation, bunker, mound, shadow, heavy turf, pit etc...  If the ninth at PCC is drivable then I would like it very much.  In fact, we did the same on our ninth at AC.  I'm not so sure about a first hole, but if it fits the hole the position of the hole in the round should have little impact on the decision to use the feature.  The goal should always be to make the best 18 holes period.  The range is where you warm up and if you were late, tough cookies.

Cheers!
JT

[Bill_McBride]

#4, #5, #12 at Talking Stick North.  A nothing site turned into a truly terrific golf course.

[Tony_Muldoon]

add interest make them diagonal on a long hole.

[Ian Andrew]

Funny, that's what I blogged about today....
you'll have to go to my blog to see the photo examples.


A bunker placed in the centre of a landing area may be an immensely controversial choice, but it is a technique that should be used more. Let’s study some great examples to understand why.

The principal’s nose on the 16th at St. Andrew’s may be the first and earliest example of a central bunker. The weakest players are well short of this hazard and don’t give it much thought; in fact many just take dead aim right at it. The average player will usually bail well to the left to avoid the cluster and reduce the risk, whereas the best players must challenge the hazard to achieve the ideal approach to the green. The green is definitely best approached from right of the cluster, which also involves flirting with the out of bounds. The bunker makes this a hole full of decision making and creates an unusual and excellent example of risk and reward from the tee.

The 4th at Woking was originally a very mundane hole until Paton placed two bunkers right in the middle of the fairway at the 230 yard mark. Golfers could play short of the hazards and face a tricky approach shot over a difficult greenside bunker, or they could take the aggressive approach of driving between the bunkers and the out of bounds, but be left with a straightforward little pitch to the green. The idea was so bold that it was met with a huge uproar in the club, but it was so clever that Tom Simpson was inspired by this great hole.

There are lots of other great examples to learn from such as Braid’s Bunker on the 2nd at Carnoustie, probably the most intimidating example of all of them. The 5th at Friar’s Head, a drivable par four where the bunker is 290 yards from the tee right in line with the green. The Shoe Bunker on the 2nd at Pacific Dunes, where a player has to decide whether to try skirt it or fly it. The long par five13th at Rustic Canyon has a central bunker with lots of room left or right, but somehow many end up stymied in the little central bunker.

I think the reason this is not used very often is the “F” word, fairness. Most players feel that they should always be rewarded for a straight drive and this seems to contradict with their beliefs. What they fail to realize is that the central bunker is placed primarily for decision making. Most players feel that it is there god given right to hit driver all day. Although this doesn’t take the driver out of their hands - they often choose another club because of the risks associated with flirting with the hazard - and they label this a weakness of the hole. The only weakness was in their courage. If we still played match play instead of stroke play, this hole type of hole would be more popular, but once again fairness influences architecture because we perfer stoke play. Admittedly this hazard must be used sparingly to work well, but with careful placement, this is an idea has produced some classic holes.

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
Grab a copy of our new book on hazards and you will see some intereting observations about centerline bunkers, etc.  Gil Hanse discusses them in his interview with us.  
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

This is a good thread - why is this one not getting the discussion it deserves?

People were bold enough to suggest the idea to Archie - so come here and explain why.

[Brendan Dolan]

I really enjoy centerline bunkers, when there is an advantage to challenging a particular side of the trap.    They can also add a lot of interest on the 2nd shot of a long par 5, as one must contemplate which angle is better for the approach shot.  Hopefully we will see more of these type of hazards in the future.  How many times do you feel this type of hazard can be used in a particular round, without being to penal or repetitive?

Brendan

[TEPaul]

I like center-line bunker schemes a whole lot for the simple reason they force golfers to make a decided choice certainly in direction and often both direction and distance.

However, like anything else they can be overused. I don't think I'd use center-line bunkering more than 3-4 times on any golf course.

[Mike_Cirba]

This is a good thread - why is this one not getting the discussion it deserves?

People were bold enough to suggest the idea to Archie - so come here and explain why.

Ian,

The following is what I wrote to Archie on another thread:

Don't have much time at the moment but what I suggested to Archie was simply that the hole could be improved by making it something like 18 at Muirfield, or perhaps 10 at Turnberry, where a center bunker complex below the level of the fairway perhaps 30 yards short of the green makes for a more interesting approach.  Of course, the area between the bunker and the green would need to be kept firm, as it generally is at TD.

I believe such a bunker would create interest in the following ways;

1) For the high handicap, attempting to carry such a hazard brings a real sense of challenge on the final hole of the day.  If they hit a good drive, they would have to decide whether to lay up and hope to pitch and putt for par, or go for it.  

2) Even if they end up failing to make the carry they would still have a shot at a wonderful recovery to end their day.

3) The low handicap or long-hitter would need to consider the bunker as well, particularly if they a) drove into the rough b) are playing into a headwind, or c) attempting a low-running approach into a green that falls away and to the left of the golfer.  

In any of these cases, I believe it heightens the interest of the approach on what is a long final hole, and would provide for a little more heart-pumping drama and opportunity for exciting risk/reward or failing that, the 1 in 10 recovery shot that you talk about for the rest of the week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is a good thread - why is this one not getting the discussion it deserves?

Because the site has transitioned away from architecture

People were bold enough to suggest the idea to Archie - so come here and explain why.

Archie,

I think the  application works extremely well on the second shot on par 5's.   Wild Horse employs them spectacularly.

Given the appropriate width, they make the golfer choose a route, the bold or the safe, with consequences for executing either and dire consequences for failing to execute.

The 8th at NGLA is a prime example of their application on the drive on a par 4, but, it could be a par 5 as well.
They present choices, and each choice has its own risk-reward, with dire consequences for failing to execute your tactical choice.

When centerline bunkers demand a choice, the golfer is faced with an intellectual and tactical dilema on the shot at hand, as well as the consequences that manifest themselves in the next shot.

So, the centerline feature should present those choices, risk-reward and consequences for the choice you make, and dire consequences for failure to execute either of the options.

[Scott Witter]

We used this feature on the 17th hole at Arrowhead Golf Club here in Buffalo.  Originally, the hole played as a dogleg right where the landing area rose slightly, 15 feet, and then down easy to the green that pitched away from play for an interesting 380 yard hole.  Unfortunately, during the design phase, the archaeological study was also being completed and during the final phase of investigations they discovered a native american camp site right where we wanted to place the 17th green.

While relocating the green, my associate at the time, Brian Dooley, developed a complete new hole, forced to be much shorter as a result, which included two slightly off-center bunkers just to the left of center and a third bunker along the right side tucked into some interesting mounds.  The hole remained as a slight dogleg right, but plays to about 345 yds.  The center bunkers are positioned first at 230 yds and the other behind it at 255yds.  The neck between these and the bunker on the right is only 17 yards.  There is a bail out to the left of the center bunkers, about 20 yards, but going right puts you in the deep fescue.

Brian also dropped the fairway before the LZ and bunkers and this added some interest with depth perception.  I constantly watch players club and re-club trying to decide what to do.  I like where this falls in the round when many players may be on a roll and it can throw them off pace, or others are struggling to recover from a couple bad holes.  This hole isn't one to to be indecisive on!

[Dave Bourgeois]

As a higher handicapper I'll echo Patrick Mucci's comments.

The best example I have of a centerline bunker usage would be 13 at Bethpage red.  The golfer certainly has a choice, go right of the complex and have more fairway width, but a tougher approach.  Going left of the bunker doesn’t look like a real option until you get out there. This is a more difficult drive because of the trees separating the 11th from 13th, but gives you a better angle to the green.

13 is the only hole on the red that has this feature, so it is very memorable.  Also, 13 isn't overly long, but it does not have to be because of this complex.  All in all these types of features just offer something unique, and give the golfer the opportunity to use his/her brain.

[Ian Andrew]

Do people perfer them more if they are slightly off centre? Does this perception of more room on one side make the idea more acceptable?

Portrush's 4th is squeezed by the bunkers in the fairway on the left side. There is a tremendous width to that hole, except for the two bunkers within the fairway. For a good player, you must either flirt with the bunkers or the out of bounds on the right. Does it work well in this case for an average player because it brings more width and fairway to hit?

[archie_struthers]

 


Just to keep the record straight I like centerline bunkers, and we have a couple at Twisted Dune (#4 and 12). I think they work particularly well on par fives.

However I don't think it would work on #18 because it would give the big hitter too much of an advantage on a long par four. If you can find a way to punish the expert player and not the average Joe, you really have something special.

This is my complaint about the ninth hole at Philly Cricket, which likewise is a long par four, wiht a centerline bunker. I think it would be a great hole without the bunker!

[mike_malone]

  Joe Hancock suggested moving the bunker complex on the right of Rolling Green's #18 into the middle of the fairway. (Joe had an idea a hole !!!) A photo of the hole can be seen on the My Home Course profile. The most distinctive feature is that the slope goes left but the dogleg is right.


     This would be interesting. It would affect the best player and not the short hitter. It would encourage the big hitter to dare to go between the bunkers and the trees for the best result. It would be particularly interesting if we widened the fairway to the left as it should be. This would allow ample bailout space but you would be going away from the hole. It could preserve the par five nature of the hole to some extent.

   I wonder what Bill would think?


   Take a look ; what do you think ?

[Scott Witter]

Ian,

To put them directly in the center I think is to easy and almost looks somewhat "cute" and for me, always placing something slightly off-center, where possible seems to give an asymmetrical view which I happen to like and think feels a bit more natural.  It aso seems to make the player focus more on their intended line for the best play, rather than saying I'm still going to play for the center and hope it falls off just a bit either way.  As you say, width on the hole is important here and to me what makes this concept successful.  On our 17th hole at Arrowhead, the width of the fairway at the bunkers is 80 yards.

[D_Malley]

archie
which bunker are you talking about at PCC #9?
essentially you have two center line bunkers there.  one on the tee shot and one about 35yds. short of green.

[wsmorrison]

The current 9th hole at Philadelphia Cricket Club was redesigned by Flynn some 4 years after the course was opened.  Here is a Flynn drawing of the hole:


For some reason I can't seem to post the drawing--I'll try again shortly.

There was another large centerline bunker on the current 7th, the 4th in Flynn's day.  Flynn redesigned much of the hole but the large right flanking bunker Flynn designed was left as a centerline bunker with vegetation with significant fairway on either side of the hazard.  The current 4th (then the 7th) had a strange HHA (no longer exists) with chocolate drop mounding (favored by Tillinghast at the time--though it went quickly out of favor) and very small pot bunkers.  Flynn suggested removing the chocolate drops and this was done.  Rumor has it the HHA may be put back in.

[D_Malley]

does anyone have a picture of that bunker (HHA) on current #4 at PCC? i heard someone say that shackelfords book "Golden age of arch text"has a picture of it.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Archie,
When you describe your dislike of the central bunker on a long 4 - that would penalize the average player I thought of Ran's comments about Seminole...

4th hole, 450 yards: This strong two-shotter runs along the crest of the dunes on the western part of the property and in that regard is reminiscent of the 4th at Rye. Aside from its length, the primary feature of the hole is the cross bunker that juts out into the fairway some 30 yards short of the green and is the start of a series of bunkers that works its way up to the left side of the green. Eger calls this first bunker one of the greatest in the game as it plays so well regardless of the wind direction. But how could a bunker a full 30 yards shy of the green be so important? Into the wind, the hole plays like a gambling par five, as the player is confronted with the decision of whether he can carry this bunker with his second. If he decides not to do so, he must lay back a full 100 yards, providing just further incentive to risk a bold second. With the wind helping, the player needs to land his approach well short of the green, not too far over the bunker. An eclectic list of the world's best 18 holes is remiss in not including this one.

I say put one on the 18th at TD - it's not too late..  

[Scott Witter]

Mike N:

Hey there, on Bulldozer 101 you are talking about running equipment today... and here you are typing a reply..can you tell us inquiring minds how you do these two things at once??

Man, you must be GOOD!  Maybe if I can learn how to do that I might get an interview with Ran?

Cheers

[David Ober]

The problem I have with many centerline bunkers from a player's prospective is that (as others have stated) many of them don't leave enough room on EITHER side for the challenge of "threading the needle" to be worthwhile.

The other issues is that when you have a centerline bunker, you usually end up narrowing your usable fairway even moreso than the space the actual bunker takes up because centerline bunkers create wear patterns from carts as they skirt around the edges of the hazard. So you end up with lots of crappy lies all around the hazard -- and that shouldn't be the case. If a player misses the bunker, they deserve a good chance at a good lie.

At a low to mid-end public facility or even a low to mid-end private facility, they are NOT a good idea for that reason alone, IMHO.

[PThomas]

I like 'em

re the "not fair" argument:  bull...just like any other hazard, aim away from them

[archie_struthers]

Mike Nuzzo et al

I'm going to invite everyone to visit and play the hole with me some day. We can have fun and drink some beer afterward. Surely with enough free drinks I'll convince most everyone that I am correct, or won't care!

Because of the hopped up ball and a big driver the bunker in front of the green that used to bother me  25 years ago on  #9 at the fabulous Philly Cricket Club isn't a concern anymore. Not short siding the second shot is another story.

A big , gnarly bunker thirty yards in front of 18 at Twisted wouldn't impact long hitters unless the wind was howling. Even if  Redanman (aka Bill V). made me go to the back of the bus (490) with him, it probably doesn't scare the bejeebers out of us. However, I hope the pit on the left works on our mind. Maybe it makes us shove it into the fescue on the right. Or come up short and give us a long chip or putt.

Either way, players of greater ability than I wouldn't be intimidated/impacted by this feature at all. Not a little bit.Technology has changed the game that much!

I don't believe golf has to be fair, but you shouldn't design holes that clearly punish the shorter hitter. He/she is already behind the eight ball! Let them take out a wood and bounce it on, not bury it in the face and make double.

I am done talking about this hole on line. Only a personal visit to the Jersey Shore will get me to defend my position further.
LOL!!!!