Lasker's golf course

[T_MacWood]

Cornish & Whitten list two courses designed for rich Chicagoan Mr. Lasker: Melody Farm designed by George O'Neil and Mill Road Farm by Wm Flynn. Are these the same golf course?

[wsmorrison]

I don't think they were both owned by Lasker.  I think Melody Farm was owned by J. Ogden Armour, I believe the the meat packing magnate, and completed in 1908.  I did not know there was a golf course on the estate.

Lasker's Mill Road Farm was begun later and completed in 1926, the same time the golf course was opened.  The Flynn course on Lasker's estate was one of the most difficult golf courses in the country at 7000 yards with a par that varied between 70 and 72.  Many tour golfers and top amateurs played the course and it was several years before anyone broke par.  Tommy Armour finally did by one stroke.  We have the plans for the course and the estate.  The estate was donated to the Univ of Chicago and not long afterwards parcelled out for residential development.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Do you know if O'Neil worked for Lasker?

[wsmorrison]

Not that I am aware of, Tom.  Cyril Tregillus was Lasker's superintendent.  Have you come across that name in your searches?  Is there anything else that leads you to believe these courses were related?  Looks like another error in Cornish and Whitten, not suprising given the huge scope of the book. Although I guess it is possible that Lasker bought the Armour farm...he sure had enough money.  Lasker pretty much invented modern advertising and was chairman of the world's larges ad firm.

[Chris_Blakely]

I have often wondered about Melody Farms and O'Neil's work.  I know of two courses he did in South Bend and have wanted to get out there and see them.

If I remember correctly, doesn't C&W state that Lasker helped O'Neil out with medical expenses / care towards the end of O'Neil's life.  That would surprise me that they would have that type of relationship and O'Neil would not have worked for him in some capacity.

[Gerry B]

one of daniel wexler's books has a  section dedicatd to  mill road farm - sounds like it was a gem - not quite the Lido in terms of NLE courses but looks like it would have stood the test of time as was previously mentioned in this thread -  a brute of a course in its day.

coincidence- The Emperor and i were discussing this course on the phone the other night

[wsmorrison]

Bob Jones considered it one of the three best courses in the United States.  It was the most difficult course in the Chicago district with a rating of 76.32 against a par of 70.  At the time Medinah #3 was 76.08 versus a par of 72.

[T_MacWood]

I thought I recalled reading or hearing from Tommy or Rick Holland that O'Neil was on Lakser's payroll as his personal pro...maybe that is where the confusion came about regarding Melody and Mill Road Farms.

[wsmorrison]

Dick Metz was the pro for Lasker at Mill Road Farm.

[Peter Flory]

Old thread, but the most fitting place to post this I believe.  I've been matching the historic aerials of Mill Road Farm to the lidar data of the site and locking them together.  Many of the green sites are lost to housing, but several remain in the ground seemingly untouched.

One of the best preserved greens is the 6th, a long par 5 on the perimeter of the property.  Luckily, this green lies in no man's land and doesn't look like it was ever disturbed or graded over. 

In these pics, I haven't adjusted the elevations, just painted on the correct surfaces over the contours generated from the lidar.  The green looks like a fun one.  It's like a multi tiered saddle with a knob and a back right pocket.  There is a decent photo of this hole and from the fairway, it is clear that the green had a 2nd tier.  However, not much else could be deduced from it.   

Approach to the 6th


View from the back right side of the green


There are some other good ones that I'll post after paint the surfaces on.  #1 is a great green and #10 looks very wild and also appears to be untouched. 

[Niall C]

Peter


Can I just confirm, what you are doing is taking land with NLE course on it and producing these renderings of the green sites from the existing contours ? If so that is amazing.


Niall

[MCirba]

Awesome.

[Peter Flory]

Can I just confirm, what you are doing is taking land with NLE course on it and producing these renderings of the green sites from the existing contours ?

That is exactly it.  I've been to the Mill Road Farm site and you can see certain features, but it is much easier to do digitally (and less invasive to the residents).  The lidar cuts through the trees and most underbrush and does a good job at revealing the actual ground contours.  The nice thing about this one is that when they built the houses- starting in the 1940s, they didn't aggressively regrade the land.  So, if a green or a bunker sat where their backyard would be, it is still there.  Unfortunately, the streets that were built cut through a few of the greens and other green sites have houses directly on top of them.  Even on the sites where the green contours are lost, the lidar still helps to give the general elevation of the green site and the surroundings. 

I reached out to one of the surviving grandchildren of Laskers a few years ago to see if there were any remaining family photos or information that wasn't publicly available.  He said that there wasn't and that he wasn't a golfer, but the one thing that he remembers was people talking about how difficult and undulating the greens were at MRF and how they could dial the scores up and down very reliably depending on the pin positions. 

Lasker had the standing offer to pay anyone who could break par on the course, so I'm sure that when pros came over for an attempt, he messed with them a bit. 

[Tim_Cronin]

Peter, this is tremendous stuff. I've kicked around trying to recreate Mill Road Farm on the old Jack Nicklaus 4 golf game, where you can design courses, but you've taken it one or two better. (Except for the mountains in the background! )


About 20 years ago, I spoke to the then-owner of the original mansion and he had no photos beyond what was publicly available.


Aerials are available online and there's at least one full map of the course around.


What do you use and where did you get the lidar data?

[Peter Flory]

The Illinois lidar is available here:  https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=44eb65c92c944f3e8b231eb1e2814f4d


I used the golf club software and someone's custom program to import the elevation data into it. I could have done it with Perfect Golf as well, but never went through the learning curve on it.


For Mill Road, I build out the whole course a couple years ago, but didn't have a lot of information on the greens. If I can add actual information for half the greens, that will be a big improvement. 

[Ira Fishman]

Peter,


Mindboggling cool. I know you did one of Lido. Have you done any others?


Ira

[Peter Flory]

Peter,

Mindboggling cool. I know you did one of Lido. Have you done any others?

Ira

My NLE revival projects, besides Mill Road Farm, are:
- Lido: 90% complete, just have to finish the 11th hole and then a round of touch ups and refinements on some others
- Overhills: 80% complete.  All the holes are done, but need to work on the aesthetics on the back nine. 
- Spring Valley CC: 99% done (this is a project to restore it to the original Langford/Moreau plans).

When I'm done with each, I'll post a photo tour or a simulator play through. 

There are a few others that I've just dabbled with and are on the to-do list.  With these, I just have the lidar ground with the routings painted over them.  That is only about 5% of the total work though.  Those include the Illinois Golf Club (Tillinghast course that morphed into Green Acres and then went brown in 2016), and Olympia Fields courses II and III. 

Eventually, I want to tackle the original Biarritz, Ocean Links, El Boqueron, and the original version of the U of M course (for this one I have the modern version done already and just need to dial it back in time).   The CBM version of Chicago GC and Fairlawn would also be interesting. 

Here is a taste of Overhills (2nd hole):  One difficulty on this one is that I see all of the features in the ground with the lidar, but they are less severe than Ross's very detailed diagrams and field notes.  I'm guessing that the sandy soil just eroded a bit.