Jim Engh Shoots Straight

[Brent Hutto]

Did anyone every consider a "trail fee" for walkers if revenue is the issue?  Or, just work the overall cost into your fee structure and let people choose to walk or ride.

Or here's a really crazy idea. Charge everyone, walker and rider, whatever the market will bear as a "green fee". Have an extra charge for the cart that recovers the cost of the lease, maintenance, labor and added wear-and-tear on the course.

I'll bet a detailed audit of those actual costs at a typical course would come up with a "marginal cost per round with a cart" that far exceeds the actual amount being charged to ride.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

As Fazio and Jim Engh have pointed out the use of carts does allow courses to be built on spectacular sites that formerly couldn't have been considered.  For everyone who enjoys the walk to the degree they won't play otherwise, there are probably ten who aren't as dogmatic, and play to view the scenery some of these courses provide.

Isn't there room for all types? (of golfers and courses?)

[Mike Hendren]

The LPGA is using carts this week:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/SPORTS04/602220393/1048

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike,

As Fazio and Jim Engh have pointed out the use of carts does allow courses to be built on spectacular sites that formerly couldn't have been considered.  For everyone who enjoys the walk to the degree they won't play otherwise, there are probably ten who aren't as dogmatic, and play to view the scenery some of these courses provide.

Isn't there room for all types? (of golfers and courses?)

Not addressed to me, but what the hell.  

There is room for all types, for sure.

I just want to celebrate one type and tolerate the other.

 

[Jack_Marr]

Every course does not have to be an architectural classic. Jim Engh is hired to do what he does because his employers think it makes sense.

I'm not suggesting Jim Engh does not produce courses of architectural merit, because I don't really know as I have not had the chance to play any yet.

It's a very big planet - some say bigger even than America. There's lots of space for golf courses of all different types.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff Brauer,

Tom Huckaby basically expressed it well in his response to the question you asked me.  

I don't mind having to ride periodically if there are reasons this has to be done but Engh's comments seem to indicate that this is the future and there is really no other way to proceed.

Beyond that, I'd simply say that a "spectacular" site might just not be really very good for golf.  I could put a tee on top of the land adjacent to Niagara Falls and build an island green down just outside the whirlpool and get there by taxi followed by a boat ride on the "Maid of the Mist", but at some point, what's the point?  It's certainly not good golf, breathtaking as it may be.

[Kirk Gill]

I'll bet a detailed audit of those actual costs at a typical course would come up with a "marginal cost per round with a cart" that far exceeds the actual amount being charged to ride.

This is an interesting notion. The way many courses around here push the carts, I've always assumed that it was the profit motive driving it.

"After all, we're not communists."
                      -Don Barzini

But how much of a purist on this issue can an architect be? It's easy from a player standpoint to rail against cartball (there's a course near me called Canterberry that I rarely play because of the long hikes between holes and the intrusiveness of the housing. The course does not charge extra for the use of a cart, I would just rather not use one), but I'd be interested if architects actively turn down jobs because an owner isn't comfortable with a "walk-only" course. What percentage of architects could afford to take this stand?

Alternately, if a course is going to be built with cartpaths, wouldn't it make sense to minimize the ugliness and intrusiveness of the paths while at the same time trying to find ways to make the use of the paths as easy and pleasant as possible? To what degree is this the responsibility of the architect? Jim Engh obviously considers it part of his job.

If I remember a recent thread correctly, Tom Doak said that some GCA's don't even consider the design of the cartpaths due to liability issues (if not because they just don't generally like them). Is this a more common practice than that of Jim Engh?

[Bill_McBride]

If a green fee includes optional cart, 99% will ride.

Cart revenue is essential or else operators will go under.

How do the cartless operators in UK/Ireland survive?

 

[Jack_Marr]

If a green fee includes optional cart, 99% will ride.

Cart revenue is essential or else operators will go under.

How do the cartless operators in UK/Ireland survive?

 

Most courses that I know will have somewhere between 0 and 10 carts. The carts are usually taken up by the older members.

[Bill_McBride]

Jack, that's in Ireland?  I haven't played there yet (and won't until Sept 2007 after the Walker Cup  ), but I've only seen one cart in Scotland.  Two young bucks were driving it on the Balcomie Links at Crail with an orange flag.  Yikes.

So Ireland is becoming more cart-friendly and Scotland's walking only history is threatened.  What are we doing to the rest of the world?

[Jack_Marr]

Jack, that's in Ireland?  I haven't played there yet (and won't until Sept 2007 after the Walker Cup  ), but I've only seen one cart in Scotland.  Two young bucks were driving it on the Balcomie Links at Crail with an orange flag.  Yikes.

So Ireland is becoming more cart-friendly and Scotland's walking only history is threatened.  What are we doing to the rest of the world?

Bill, when I say most have between 0 and 10, I mean that many of them have none. However, I think it's great that older people who can no longer walk 18 holes can now play these courses.

I've also had many knee operations and sometimes can't walk a course. Mostly on these days, I don't play at all, but sometimes I do with the aid of a cart.

I don't particularly like using them, to be honest, as they are not social, but if you're just out to strike a ball...

I used a cart in the European Club when it was so windy that walking was impossible. The windscreen on the buggy blew in and shot off down the course. Needless to say, it got caught in the rough and was never seen again.

[mike_malone]

 On a friday night we saw a few carts at Royal Dublin. They were ridden by cigar smokin' 30 year olds. To our amazement they drove them across the greens and parked them on the tee!!!

[Jay Flemma]

Attaboy Cirba!  Screw carts.

I actually suceeded in walking Lakota Canyon and was more exhausted than ever.  (Note:  Altitude sickness.maaaaaaaaaaay have aided that...)  Lakota just needs some walking paths, thats all.

The thing we have NOT discussed here is that so many people think that Engh won those awards because he built the PRETTIEST course...what they completely underestimate is how terrific the individual holes, routing and architectural features are.  Look around when you're playing an engh course and you see bits of Ballybunion, Carne, and other great irish and scottish links...

I love the walkers credo...I will walk unless and until I have a physical disability which prevents me.

Sadly...to paraphrase the aw shuckster here...since I've rapidly become this old man I'm tunring into, my shin splits sometimes try to dictate things...been lucky lately, but back a couple years aqgo I had a bout where I had to take a cart for one weekend.

I actually felt really bad about that...of course my legs felt worse;)  Shin splints are no joke...and get this...they're hereditary, I got 'em from dad.  But barring that, I feel lost without my bag slung over my shoulder.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

While there is no doubt the best way to play the game is via a bag slung over one's shoulder, well... at a certain point one does come to realize he has limitations, and the game can be pretty damn fun out of a cart as well.  On top of that, the sane tend to realize that are proving a point to no one by walking courses like Lakota Canyon (from what I can tell), Wolf Creek, Pasadera here in Monterey, etc.  Sure, ANY course CAN be walked.  At a certain point one just has to ask "but why bother?"

But we've covered that OODLES of times in here.  The militant walkers give no quarter, god love them.

 

I have yet to play an Engh course.  But from the pics, it would seem to me that visuals have a large effect on the high praise - I just see nothing wrong with that.  But thanks for emphasizing that there is great "in the ground, architectural" merit to his courses as well - this will allow Pat Mucci to sleep tonight.

 

[Tim Pitner]

I truly believe there are more people who prefer to walk than you suppose.  Consider why Americans love to travel to the UK and Ireland to play golf.  There are several reasons (the culture, the seaside courses, the history), but I submit that one of the reasons is that they enjoy playing a more elemental style of golf--a walking game that is diametrically opposed to the cart-ball that Engh seems to be championing.  Look at the success of Bandon.  Think about what a blight cart paths are, even on a spectacular site like Pebble Beach.  

Not every course can be a Bandon or Pacific Dunes, but I sure wish more talented architects took up the walking cause.  Engh is undoubtedly talented (although the only course of his I've played, Red Hawk Ridge, is on my "never play again" list--it can't be his best work), but I really don't think cart-ball needs any more advocates.  Unfortunately, it's doing quite well these days.  

[Tom_Doak]

I feel pretty certain that some architects would have labeled the site I'm working on in Montana as "unwalkable" or at least claimed that it was necessary to make the course unwalkable in stretching out the course to put the holes on the best ground.

But I've been walking the steepest part of the course up and down for the last three days of construction, and I think it is very walkable, because we were committed to finding a routing that made it walkable even if it took a lot more effort.  I think in many cases architects are too quick to give up because they don't want to put in that effort.

Clearly Mr. Engh has done a couple of courses (Black Rock is the only one I can vouch for personally) that the site was basically unwalkable, and I'm not knocking him for putting paths all over those.  But if he just doesn't care if the course is walkable or not ... I'll knock him for that.

[George Pazin]

It's a great big world....

Guess I don't have to worry about ever playing one of Engh's courses, in the US anyway.

Jim can do whatever he wants. I just hope my favorites keep building walkable courses. I don't mind a difficult hike - I walked both Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge, despite recommendations to the contrary.

To hell with the men's only issue, I'd never join a club that's not walkable!

[Tom Huckaby]

George:  we have found something on which to agree.

I would not join a club with an unwalkable course either.

But in any case, of course Jim Engh can and will do what he wants, and yes it is a great big world of golf.

I just continue to wonder if this is a dead issue or not.  No one's given me an answer to that yet.  Is this a fight even worth pursuing any more?  Or should we just give all praise to Engh, at the same level of those making the difficult effort Tom Doak describes, to give us more walkable courses?

TH

ps - did you walk Wolf Creek?  Just want to put you in the proper place on the Burroughs Scale of Walking Insanity.  

[Sean Leary]

I prefer to walk my own course and most courses I travel to play. But if I'm in the desert or Hawaii, or playing a course like the ones it seems like Engh builds I have no problem with cartballing it at all. Doesn't bother me one bit, and in fact I enjoy taking a cart in these sorts of places...

The hard part would be a member of a course which is very walkable, but one where EVERYBODY rides. A course like Diablo in Nor Cal comes to mind.  Don't know what I would do if I were a member there..

[George Pazin]

ps - did you walk Wolf Creek?  Just want to put you in the proper place on the Burroughs Scale of Walking Insanity.  

No. I was with a large group of guys at my own bachelor party, so I didn't think it would be too cool to make others walk when they were paying my way. I won't walk it next time, either, because there won't be a next time. Hopefully.

Is it a fight worth having? Sure, I think it is. The second you concede everything to the riders and their sycophantic architect servants , fewer and fewer walkable courses will be built.

But I should add, I define "fight" by voting with my money. I couldn't care less how others spend theirs.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - does everyone really ride at Diablo?  That is sad.  Great walking course without a doubt.  

George - I think you misunderstand the "fight" I mean.  Of course you ought to vote with your feet and not patronize courses that offend you, walkability-wise.  BUT... that's not really going to make a whole heck of a lot of difference - no offense.  What I am getting at is publicity/praise/ratings/rankings... you know, all of those things that drive development and success of courses and architects, to a way bigger extent than they should, but still, that's how it is....

Is it worth even bothering any more, or is it pissing in the wind?

TH

ps - your sanity remains, re Wolf Creek.  

[Sean Leary]

TH,

Yes most do, as a good portion of the members live there and have their own carts.  My point is that if you are playing with 3 guys that have their own carts and play super fast, do I want to be the guy that slows them down because I prefer to walk?  Obviously, I could find a different group, but you get my point.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I do get your point.  Often times I ride, for exactly that reason - just to fit in with the group.  So I get that, for sure... and I understand if you live there, cart over to the first tee, you're just gonna continue in the cart....

To me it's just a drag that such a walkable course is primarily carted.  And this does add a weird complication to the "should I join" issue.  I'm not sure what I would do either.

TH

[Dave Bourgeois]

I'm wondering if Jim Engh is referencing certain courses that are developed in more resort type areas.  I can understand the overall use of a design maximizing views and the memorability of a course since most playing a resort course are in for the experience. 90% of people being riders seems a tad high to me in general, but I should scope out the whole article to see the context.  If Jim designs a course that has great vistas and great interest and strategy and you can't argue with his talent.  

However, I greatly appreciate designers/owners that put thought in for walkers and make an effort to save land etc. to keep the game affordable.

[Jay Flemma]

I'll tip the scales of walking insanity...I walked wolf creek and had no problem!  Its not 5000 feet above sea level like Lakota and Red Hawk ridge and Redlands are.  I love going to places and hearing them say "you can't walk here" then watching them all slack-jawed as I come up 18 fairway.

Shucks hucks, y'all never laid an Engh before?  We have to remedy that.  A week in Colorado is almost as restorative as a couple days in Oregon.

NOTE:  I said RESTORATIVE...not "better golf"  I wanna take a week sometime this year and go out again when I dont have to worry about reviewing the course or writing something up...I can just relax, practice and kick back.  I'm sure we can find some other curious, adventurous souls.  Who knows, maybe Jim or Tim hartnett or Wayne can join us.