Has Golfclubatlas.com lost its touch?

[Tony_Muldoon]

FINALLY, I've found a benefit to my recent weight gain:  I can no longer contemplate my navel.

You guys feel free to go right ahead, however.  

Mike

May have an uncertain touch at the moment but sense of humour is still right here.

[John_Cullum]

Has Golfclubatlas.com lost it's touch? Your question presumes it had one to begin with. It is what it is, the discussion group lives and breaths and evolves. Just go with it.

I suggest that those who have expressed similar concerns of late step back and look at the big picture. We are discussing a game, and games exist solely for diversion and entertainment. Every registered participant can find something here every day to provide some diversion or entertainment. Enjoy that and don't worry about the rest of it. I feel it is a mistake to try to make this discussion group into a research library, although it serves that function in many ways.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I'll speak only for myself but here is why I went from an hourly reader and several times a day poster to a weekly reader and monthly poster: I got tired of the single mindset and fighting.

At some point, IMO, GCA stopped being about intellectual discussion of golf architecture in general and to some extent became a PR Firm for Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and other "Preferred Architects."  The opinion that Rees, Fazio, Nicklaus and some of the more commercially successful architects actually produce good or better work, stopped being acceptable and was met with vitriol by many on this site.  Simply it just became tiresome to not have the same group think as the majority and every position needing to be argued ad nausem instead of accepted as a dissenting view.

[Tom Huckaby]

This thread illustrates the fact that people come and go from this forum for many reasons far beyond any perceived lack of architectural focus, or loss of touch.

In fact Noel Freeman laments the loss of many, in the Yale thread.  But take them one by one...

Geoff Childs - left for many reasons far beyond this.

George Bahto - has a very busy life, never has participated in here all that much, still does when he can, on subjects that interest him - same as always.

Gib Papazian - life issues going on mean little time for this frivolity.

Ran Morrissett - hasn't participated in here in terms of active discussion in YEARS.  Comes in from time to time still though to announce new things.

That leaves Anthony Pioppi from Noel's post.  I have no idea about his motivations but one can guess he is rather busy.

Yes, it is too bad guys like this don't participate more.  But that being said, new blood does keep coming in.  It ebbs and flows.

I just do believe it's not a fair assumption to say that people leave for any one reason.

TH

[Noel Freeman]

Tom-

Tommy just told me out with the old and in with the new.. Fair enough.. I think is correct and incorrect at the same time..

Yale was the MOST important thread/course that this site affected and finally when some of the improvements that were long talked about come to fruition--and no one cares nor do the prinicpals involved come to comment on it.

Ran wrote it was one of the 10 tragedies in golf (Yale).. I figure he will comment about it when Scott Ramsey does an interview.

As for the person by person blow I commented on, with the exception of Gib and not knowing his business, everybody else has the capability to check in.  But hey, Tommy is right out with the old and in with the new.

I just got an IM warning a 15 year old in detention or should I say study hall earlier about my conduct here.  I had to remind him, I was probably one of the first 20 people here.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Since I was on GCA already, I decided to read the other threads.  The Lost Canyon thread is the perfect example of why GCA will never be as important to me.  Although we are discussing opinions, to many it is not an opinion, it is fact that Lost Canyons is bad because it committed the crime of being built near GCA darling; Rustic Canyon.  Many of the long time posters know that I am not in love with Rustic Canyon and frankly if I had ten rounds, would skip the other course at Lost Canyons but would either split my rounds 5/5 between Sky and Rustic or maybe 6/4 Rustic.  I like to be challenged off the tee, think Dye is a creative genius in his use of a severe site and RC does not pose enough thought for me off the tee.  The time where that stopped being an acceptable perception and starting being heresy is when I started losing interest.  Heck DM is going back in archives to prove what Matt Ward thinks?  It just gets silly if you do not always see things the party way.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Noel:

Of course it would be great for the current Yale to be discussed and the changes celebrated.  And yes, those are the fellows that ought to lead the conversation.

But they're not here.  Yes they have the ability to check in, but they don't, and it's not because they don't want to talk about Yale, or due to any lack of content here, or any discontent with this group.  I firmly believe my person by person account is correct - the reasons are far different in each case.

Then the rest of us simply haven't seen the course as it is now.  It's not that we don't care - what do you want us to say?

As for out with the old, in with the new, well... it's a natural cycle of forums like this!  Tommy's been around such as long or longer than I have - remember many of us pre-date this place - and that's always how it goes.

This one has survived WAY longer than any other, and remains WAY more healthy and worthwhile.

But hell, such things aren't my bag today.  I just wanted to point out that it's really not fair to say all these guys, or anyone, left for any one reason.

TH

ps - David W - of course you make a great point and that does drive some people away.  Posts crossed here.

[Jay Flemma]

From the perspective of a relative newbie, I love GCA and learn a great deal every time I come here.  The only thing better than the discussion is the collegiality of the people.  With the influx of new blood and the incessant building and re-design, we'll always have plenty to talk about.  Like Brad wrote, if a thread's not interesting, skip it.

Other than that, just remember two simple things.  One, remember that just because a keyboard naturally leads itself to a more glib and casual tone, think before hitting send and 2) just keep in mind not to say anything you wouldn't say to someone if they were sitting across from you over a GCA dinne and you're good to go.

Mike, thank you for reading my website and spreading the love.

[Noel Freeman]

Huck--

We all should be leading the life of Reilly or Jim Reilly, a former contributor from 2000-2002.. Jim is living in Costa Rica with a leggy Dutch gal who is taller than him and 10 years younger.  My brother in law recently visited him and said Jim looked like a man without a care in the world.  He is speculating in real estate in Tamorindo and plays a Mike Young design down there for peanuts and loves it..

[Tom Huckaby]

Mr. Reilly would seem to have life by the tail (no pun intended).

 

But seriously, there's another great contributor from the past, gone for reasons far beyond what's being posited here.

TH

[DMoriarty]

David Wigler,

In the Lost Canyon's thread Yannick asked for our thoughts on the Sky Course, and we gave them to him.  While most of those responding dislike Lost Canyons, some of us suggested that he play it anyway if for nothing else than the contrast.  Noting that no one said much positive about the course, I thought it would only be fair to make Yannick aware that in the past some had been very positive about the course, and sited Matt Ward as an example.  This hardly seems like the type of pettiness that you are complaining about.  

I did go back and look at what Matt had previously said about the course.  Matt thought I had misrepresented him and felt the need to "set the record straight" and I wanted to let Matt know that I had the record straight before I posted.  Was I telling Matt what he thinks?  No, I was telling him what he thought in the past.  

Was my post over the line?  I dont think so.  Was it really all that productive?  Probably not.  My comments were a bit petty in the same sense as your post here is petty.  I'll try to avoid this type of pettiness in the future.  

Although we are discussing opinions, to many it is not an opinion, it is fact that Lost Canyons is bad because it committed the crime of being built near GCA darling; Rustic Canyon.

So David, is this the kind of contribution you think would be better for the site?  Just how could a statement like this further any discussion?  Or how about . . .

The time where that stopped being an acceptable perception and starting being heresy is when I started losing interest.

Your opinion about Rustic Canyon never became heresy, and is in fact still a common perception of the course.  It happens to be one which many disagree with, but disagreement is very often the basis for productive discussion, if those disagreeing are willing to have their viewpoints challenged and to defend their perspectives.  You were apparently not willing to do so.  

David,  you and I both know that the ugliest conversations had absolutely nothing to do with your opinion of Rustic Canyon.  I'd rather not relive those conversations, but I am not going to let you rewrite history.  And I am certainly not going to stand by as you portray yourself as some sort of a GCA martyr.  

[David Wigler]

Thanks for reminding me of what I do not like David.  I have no interest in being a martyr nor debating you.  Keep making friends and enjoy the warm weather in California.

[Mike Hendren]

What is it you lawyers say?  Res ipsa loquitur?  

This thread is beginning to speak for itself.

Mike

[Michael Dugger]

When I first stumbled across this site I was amazed and thrilled to find a group of people who loved what I loved!  It's like finding someone who studies bugs.

The site still has tremendous value, but it's just a website guys.

Any notion that this has turned into Tom Doak's personal PR firm is ridiculous.  I propose the notion that BECAUSE Mr. Doak is not afraid to spar with us, BECAUSE this online forum is public, BECAUSE of GCA.com and Ran's excellent idea, the "other" architects out there are raising the bar.

That's good, IMHO

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I love this web site. I do find we go over many of the same courses and topics but that also goes with being on the site for many years. I do wish we would play to design features more often, but I have only started a few of these. Therefore maybe I am talking to the mirror as they say. I am glad to see less of the politics in recent months but usually am one who chimes in there as well. lol I am looking forward to meeting the great TE Paul for I am told he is just as great a guy as the other verbose one Pat Mucci. Lets just keep the faith and GCA will go down as a testament to one time where technology made the world a better place.

[David Wigler]

Michael,

Your comment is fair and if my writing came off that way, then I overstated my case.  I did not mean to imply that Doak, Hanse, etc. had intended that result nor that they were in some nefarious way responsible for it.  

It was more an indictment of what I perceived as group think that I did not share and the frustration of constantly having every non group think comment challenged to death and taken as a personal insult by those that did not see it that way.  

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

Your comment is fair and if my writing came off that way, then I overstated my case.  I did not mean to imply that Doak, Hanse, etc. had intended that result nor that they were in some nefarious way responsible for it.  

It was more an indictment of what I perceived as group think that I did not share and the frustration of constantly having every non group think comment challenged to death and taken as a personal insult by those that did not see it that way.  

Wigs,

Hey man, ain't no thang.  I don't read all the posts anymore.  I don't really look at the names either!!!

But I do, for real, think that this website has forced the "large firm" type of architects to raise the bar.  

I'd be embarrassed to be some of these guys practicing today.  Doak, for one, is killing them on the ground and killing them in the press.  

I have more respect for someone who gets in the ring and gets knocked out then someone who doesn't get in the ring at all.    

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for reminding me of what I do not like David.  I have no interest in being a martyr nor debating you.  Keep making friends and enjoy the warm weather in California.

This is exactly my point.  You want to pop in, denegrate a number of opinions on Lost Canyons as nothing but negativity causes by its close proximity to Rustic, and claim you've been misportrayed as a heritic.  

Yet you dont see how this is self-martyrdom, nor do you have any desire to discuss it.  

Hardly a way to approach an intelligent conversation.  

[David Wigler]

Dave,

I thought my post was very clear.  I have no interest in debating you.  Enjoy the warm weather.  I wish I was in California.

[DMoriarty]

I thought my post was clear, as well.  I am not a fan of drive-by shootings.  

So in the future perhaps you should refrain from swinging by to take cheap shots if you have no interest in actually entering into the discussion.

After all this is a discussion group, not a complaint box.  

[David Wigler]

[Craig Van Egmond]

NF,

         Thanks for the update about Jim Reilly, I had wondered what happened to him. I had the pleasure of joining him and his dad at Primm Valley years ago. We also played up in N. Michigan with RJ, Peter Pittock and John M., man that was fun.  I'm glad to hear that he's doing well, he seemed like a fine young man.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Now, don't anybody do anything rash!  

As a very infrequent poster, I appreciate the frank and in-depth conversations that take place here.  I continue to find this board to be the finest, in terms of discussing golf courses(design theory, history, construction, engineering, etc.) than any other website any where... commercial or not.  Maybe it's the non-commercial aspect that allows for a frank conversation of the merits of tree-clearing on various courses between Tom Doak and me (although that hasn't actually happened yet). It's this great mix of people from professional GCA's and superintendants to skilled players and architect "connosieurs" to individuals like me who sit back and absorb information like a La Costa fairway in the middle of February, that makes this site a must visit.   Unfortunately, spending my days in planes, trains, and automobiles all week is highly non-condusive to being a productive contributor to this site.  Not to mention, I certainly don't have the vast experience and "portfolio" of course visits as others (i.e. TEPaul, Huckaby, Wayne Morrison, JESII, et al) that allows for a meaningful interplay about the merits of the Redan at NGLA vs. Shinnecock.  However, these discussions have clearly shone the light on such heady topics.

From the outside, one thing I notice is a lot of topics have been covered quite extensively (i.e. Aronimink's bunkering), and they've probably lost steam.  And, the OT threads are sometimes annoying, but more often than not seem to allow specific discussions to take place among a smaller sub-set of contributors... not necessarily a bad thing.

All that said, without GCA.com I never would added Chattanooga, TN to my "golf destination wish list"... never would have heard of GB&I courses like Burnham & Berrow, Siloth on Solway, Hunstanton, and others not on the usual tours... never have known who Macan, Thompson, Emmet, and Bendelow were and the marks they made on this Earth.  

Thanks to everyone!  

[Voytek Wilczak]

Huck--

We all should be leading the life of Reilly or Jim Reilly, a former contributor from 2000-2002.. Jim is living in Costa Rica with a leggy Dutch gal who is taller than him and 10 years younger.  My brother in law recently visited him and said Jim looked like a man without a care in the world.  He is speculating in real estate in Tamorindo and plays a Mike Young design down there for peanuts and loves it..

Now that is the most valuable post I have read at GCA so far...

Costa Rica?

A leggy Dutch gal?

10 years younger?

Golf for peanuts?

RE in Tamorindo?

I am sooooo there....

[Jordan Wall]

What if everyone that wanted post OT just posted it on bombsquadgolf??

I do know many people on this site such as names mentioned already lead very busy lives and simply do not have time for this site.  This is a great site, an awesome site, and I am very thankful for it, as I have learned a lot.  But maybe we rely too much on the fact that people who used to be frequent posters dont post as much anymore.  Sooner or later they are going to run into many things, like kids, work, family, etc....  They just aren't gonna have time.  I dont think its fair to come to the conclusion that many people who do not post any more do not post simply because of OT.  Seriously, its gotta be more then that.  I am not saying I support OT, but simply OT is not the only reason people may not post as much any more.