News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Australia advice II
« on: March 03, 2006, 02:58:22 AM »
Regarding Royal Melbourne and its overwhelming choice as best course, should I try to golf there on two different days? One to see it and then think about it and soak it in, and then go back later in the trip to see it again. Also, what about seeing the East course to see the holes that make up the composite course?
   Regarding the composite course, why is it used? To showcase the best holes, make the course tougher, to provide better flow?

In reading Tom D's Confidential Guide he mentioned work being done on Commonwealths greens (this was awhile ago), how did the greens turn out?

Tom Doak,
    Did you ever see Tasmania GC, Portsea, or Woodlands since you did Confidential Guide?

What is your general opinion of Barwon Heads? I am intrigued after Paul Daley brought it up and then read what Tom D had to say about it in CG.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2006, 03:01:02 AM »
Also, I need recommendations for New Zealand too please. Ash gave me some tips, what do the rest of you like there?Does anybody know what course Tom D was referring to in NZ at the north end of 90 mile beach?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2006, 03:13:38 AM »
Ed

I have never been to Oz for golf.  Still, when I play excellent courses I much prefer to play only 18 a day, think on it then play 18 another day.   I nearly always feel that lunch and or the golf is rushed when 36 is planned.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2006, 03:28:27 AM »
Ed, the Composite course is used to avoid road crossings - it is on the "main paddock":
http://www.rmgc.com.au/courses/index.php

Commonwealth is worth seeing, there are many great greens still there today.

I don't know if the club will let you play 36 in a day, but its worth playing the East as it is one of Australia's top 5-6 courses.  If you can only play eighteen, play the West, otherwise play both courses.  

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2006, 03:37:57 AM »
Re Tasmania GC.
I've played it once and found it enjoyable.  Better than Royal Hobart.  Hilly property with some very good holes.  The 12th at Kingsbarns is veryy similar to the par5 3rd here.  Only the Tasmania hole is more picturesque.

Worth it if you are in the area, probably not worth a special trip.  Hobart is a nice town though.

What did Tom say about Barwon Heads?

I'm a BIG fan

Mark_F

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2006, 04:49:29 AM »
Sean,

It isn't the lunch or golf Ed is in danger of rushing if he plays 36, it's the beer.

After spending his life drinking the fermented cat's piss that passes for the amber fluid in the USA, he might want to slow down and savour a real brew here.


Matt_Sullivan

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2006, 05:10:43 AM »
I'd play the East as well -- it is probably the third best course on the sandbelt (behind West and Kingston Heath). The holes on the main paddock are great holes. Not all the East holes on the main paddock are in the composite course, but even those that aren't (eg 1 and 16) are good holes, especially 16 (which is one of the best par 3s on either course).

The holes not on the main paddock can be a bit of a mixed bag and I believe there have been some alterations recently to 7 and 8 -- not sure how it turned out

Ed, not sure when you will be there but if it is Southern Hemisphere summer then it will be light until 8.30 or so and you can easily play a relaxed 36.

Woodlands and Portsea are very good courses -- usually ranked in top 20 in Oz. Portsea especially is good value (A$40 or so) but it is a bit of a drive from Melbourne -- 60-90 minutes depending on traffic and where you start from.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2006, 03:22:40 PM »
Thanks for the advice guys. Not to worry about the cat piss thing Mark since I don't drink.
Sean A,
    I never rush the golf on these trips, that is what I am there for. I have no need to eat in the middle of the day, so lunch doesn't get in the way either. :)
Sean W,
  What do you like about Barwon Heads? Tom said (from my notes) "...unanimously considered the best links golf course in Australia." Holes on classic open links ground are #'s1-6 and 12-14 with enough memorable holes to set this course apart. Clubhouse accomodations make a nice retreat. A very nice change of pace from the Sandbelt courses.

Matt S,
   I was planning on late April, so I presume the days are a bit shorter then. When would you say I should expect darkness that time of year?

Chris,
  Thanks for the link.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 03:29:51 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2006, 03:54:27 PM »
Lots of thoughts in no particular order -

US beer is no match for ours.

36 in a day isn't too much in summer, but it pushes it some time in winter.

Woodlands must be a contender for the 3rd best sandbelt course.

If I had a week in Melbourne I'd play Royal Melbourne East and West, Kingston Heath, Woodlands, Yarra Yarra and Victoria. Stay at Vic GC. Spend 4 nights there. Then drive the hour down to the Mornington Peninsula, play St. Andrews Beach, National Old and Moonah and Portsea, stay at Shearwater Resort next door to The National. Then get the 40 minute ferry from the Mornington Peninsula to Barwon Heads, play BHGC and 13th Beach (Beach), stay at Barwon Heads GC that night. Drive back to Melbourne the next morning, then catch a flight down to Tasmania, as which point, I'd say - Barnbougle here I come. Stay there three and play eac day. Fly back to Sydney, play NSWGC and then head home. You wouldn't be gone 2 weeks!

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2006, 05:05:47 PM »
Ed:  I would rate Woodlands and Portsea higher than Barwon Heads.  I have still not seen Tasmania Golf Club but no one down there thought too highly of it.

The course at the s. end of Ninety Mile Beach is called Kaitaia, and it can't be too far of a drive from Kauri Cliffs if you get that far.  Ran Morrissett is the only one I know who has seen it -- he once had it at #100 on his personal list but I'm sure that was a bit of a stretch.  Maintenance is very iffy, but it IS a true links.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2006, 05:23:52 PM »
Thanks guys, as always very helpful. NZ recommendations anyone? Is there some sort of animosity between NZ and Australia that I should be aware of? ???
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2006, 05:27:52 PM »
maybe the best course in the world?  I vote for 2 days!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2006, 05:39:09 PM »

US beer is no match for ours.


Don't you lot drink lager and fizzy ale?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2006, 06:19:23 PM »
Ed,

I played RM three times over two days.  Highly recommended.

As to other advice re:Australia - Consider a one way ticket......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 07:01:10 PM »
Ed, depending on when in April (beginning or end) the sun is setting   between 5.30 and 6pm and rising between 6.30 and 7am I guess. So plenty of time for 36 if you hit off early, but a 9am tee time won't leave a lot of time for lunch

Matt Mollica's itinerary is pretty solid -- that would be a great two weeks of golf

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2006, 07:13:47 PM »
Ed,

Matt's intinery is excellent.  Except I would DEFINETLY add 36 holes at Peninsula CC which is half way between the sandbelt and the Morningto Peninsula courses. By the time you get there the 36 hole Mike Clayton redesign will be complete (8 holes to go at the moment). You can stay in the Clubhouse at Peninsula too.

I would also add Commonwealth in Melbourne because it has some unique stuff -sone really clever strategic architecture.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

peter_p

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2006, 08:46:03 PM »
Last time I was there you could not play both RM courses on the same day. If I was going to add two days/two courses it would be Kooyonga and Royal Adelaide. Definite step above Royal Hobart and Tasmania GC. Have not played Peninsula, but another sandbelt course to consider is Metropolitan.

Sydney/NSW/Newcastle could wait for your second trip.
There will be one. I've done two and am pre-plannning #3. Add it to NZ trip.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 08:47:26 PM by Peter Pittock »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2006, 11:05:31 PM »
Thanks so much gents. This has been very educational and we have just about worked out what we want to see.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2006, 11:43:09 PM »
G'day Ed: Man ... the excitement level comes through in your posts - hope to see you Down Under real soon!

Just a comment on your opening comment, namely, that Royal Melbourne is viewed as overwhelmingly the best course in Australia. You're absolutely right: nearly everyone agrees. But I've been thinking about the context of "overwhelming". When chatting to golfers about RM vs. KH, one often hears: RM is marginally better; slightly better; moderately better; and other variations on the theme. Only rarely will you hear phrases like: RM is way better; significantly better; KH is not in the same league, and so forth.

RMGC West is the best course in Australia (make that the Southern Hemisphere), but I suspect by a smaller margin than people may be willing to concede in public.

As cruel for KH being located in the same town as RMGC, consider the fate of Victoria GC, just across the road from Royal Melbourne. This magnificent layout has suffered untold, odious comparisons. It is wrong to suggest that if Victoria GC was located in any other State it would shine on through, for if it were in any other State ... it would naturally lose all its Sandbelt features.  
 

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2006, 12:24:09 AM »
Only rarely will you hear phrases like: RM is way better; significantly better; KH is not in the same league, and so forth.
 

Except on this board Paul.   ;D

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2006, 12:36:55 AM »
Paul et al,
   What are the attributes of Barwon Heads and Portsea in your estimation?
    Prior to my inquiries I wasn't aware of these courses, but I am pretty sure I want to see Portsea, and maybe Barwon Heads if time allows thanks to you guys suggesting them.
   So what are the pros and cons of these courses?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2006, 12:52:33 AM »
Ed,

It's been a year or so since I've played Barwon Heads and have only played it the once so take any of my following appraisal with that in mind.  Also I have not played Portsea.  It has however been highly recommended by Paul and his is an opinion I trust.  He advocated County Louth on my trip to Ireland and although it is not the best course I played it is one of the most fondly remembered.

Re Barwon Heads.  Two of the better links Par3's you will play (13&6) Some wonderful short par4's.  One very good long 4 with large section of rocky sandy waste representing the risk/reward hazard.  The course is set on some wonderful terrain ranging from a rollercoaster of the first few holes with major elevation changes to the traditional humpty bumpty scottish links character of the middle holes.  I don't have a clear memory of the finishing few holes, but would say that I was of the opinion they were the lesser lights.

two snaps of BH at this site

http://www.golfselect.com.au/armchair/wallpaper.aspx

Hope that helps.

Hopefully others have played it more and can give you more of a comparison between it and Portsea.  I will say that I only have more fondness for one Australian Course and that is Port Fairy(Although I could develop a similar feeling for Barnbougle).  It's a pity that you won't have time to drive the ocean road and play this little gem on Victoria's "Shipwreck Coast".
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 01:26:34 AM by Sean Walsh »

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2006, 08:08:08 AM »
Ed: The virtues of Portsea and Barwon Heads: what a fun assigment you've set!

Design:
Very little jumps out as "horrible" or "lost" opportunities. While neither are flawless like Royal Melbourne West, it seems to work.

Conditioning:
Over the last 30 years both courses have been maintained in a condition that is anathema to others who seek "perfection", but in their coastal environments - and considering the style of courses - they are perfect. It is fraught to say "rough and ready" for such words are easily misinterpreted. Pristine, they are not, and both courses would look overly "prissy" if ever presented in that manner. I wouldn't mind betting that Sean Walsh's great love of Port Fairy (3 hours away from Barwon Heads) is partly derived through the "rough and ready" presentation that prevails. By no means am I suggesting "neglected" - what a world of difference between the two.

Budgets:
While the course supers' may or may not have bulging budgets, neither outwardly seem indictaive of courses that have been overly influenced by the size of the budget. Such golfing bliss is not easy to acheive.  

Fun element:
Anyone can get around and play these courses. Length wise, they are not wickedly long, but are as long as they need to be. Regardless of score, you'll enjoy your round. If not, time to take up bowls.

Greens:
Being older layouts, the greens are much smaller with less undualtion when compared to the newer Victorian coastal courses to have materialised over the past ten years.

Shotmaking requirements:
Count on wind, so all kinds of shots are required to make a good fist of your round. One feature of Portsea is the amount of uphill shots (not infrequently from downhill lies/stances), to small greens perched on high ground. The golfer faces this element as early as the second shot on the opening hole

Coastal vs. "Linksy":
While both are coastal courses, only Barwon Heads is "linksy" and even then, that element could be improved. Because the rippling "lay-of-the-land" nature of BH is so impressive, it is one golf course where every single tree could be taken out without detriment. Like many other Australian courses, early 1920-30s images reveal layouts bereft of the "beards" they've since grown. Yes, courses mature, and some things are inevitable, but BH would be even more amazing if presented in a denuded state.

Driving thrill:
One of the best aspects of Portsea is the thrill of driving from elevated tees. Much more treelined than BH, it is, pleasingly, not excessively tight, so one can really savour these driving opportunities out to the distant, broad valleys.

Atmosphere:
An indefinable atmosphere (and different at both) exists.


peter_p

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2006, 12:14:53 PM »
   At Portsea you can putt off the 11th green and have a full shot back. Portsea is a stronger test throughout. Barwon Heads is a quirky links until you get back to the clubhouse.
Then you cross a mundane stretch of land to get to some really good holes at the far end. There you look out across the boundary o some even better land.
   No one has mentioned the Dunes (Cashmore) on the Mornington. Would this be a good substitute or additon? It had some wonderful holes.

 

tonyt

Re:Australia advice II
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2006, 05:43:05 PM »
Add my name to those endorsing Matthew's itinery. David's additions are also very worthy, only without disparaging them, they will merely further pad out an already adequately complex and complete short term experience, without also robbing you of the chance to actually see a tiny bit of Melbourne as well.

For all its being underwhelming to some, the Barwon Heads / Thirteenth Beach (Beach course only) duo are very charming and very do-able. Barwon Heads is not a place one will walk off and wish they hadn't spent the hours there. I'd play this couple instead of adding even more sandbelt simply due to experiencing some excellent golf that differs from more of the same and gives a more rounded flavouring of Australian golf.

Kaitaia (which I too mentioned after the last time Tom did) is located where few people will ever pass through in their travels, but it is magic. Undeveloped enough to be a truly fine links, yet undevelioped enough to not have been meddled with. If it were in the UK, it would make all those threads about enjoyable cheap courses not to be ignored en route between two big names. Not quite as quirky as some of the oldies, but almost as untouched. It is not quite on the tip of NZ, but at the southern end of the Ninety Mile Beach.