You call this discussing ARCHITECTURE ?

[Tom Huckaby]

I want to echo what Tom said.

I think the occasional OT thread offers some levity and a more general sence of the game, BUT when there is constantly more OT threads than golf course architecture threads -we have done a diservice to Ran's objectives with the site.

Threads are churned out and thrown away at a rate that no healthy dialogue can develop - there seems to be 10 second attention span - and then a rush to the next thread.

Ian - ok dammit, I guess I'm in this again.  
 

I don't get this "churn" issue... is it that difficult to look at page 2, 3, whatever?  Jeez it's just one more click... you have clearly marked for you the one's you've looked at or not...

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Pat Mucci,

I am probably as guilty as anyone in posting silly replies, however I have posted some rather lengthy reponses on certain architecture threads with absolutely no response at all which leads me to think I'm stupid, I'm too serious, you're (meaning all on here) are stupid, or my view is irrelevant, so while you gnash your teeth about off topic threads I'm beginning to think my input here is basically irrelevant and I need to gracefully bow out and quit making a fool of myself.  In the end I enjoy it here so I guess we both gotta suck up our disappointments and keeping plowing ahead.  It's like I tell my 9 year old basketball team, "quit looking at me and throwing up your hands when you think you've been fouled and just keeping playing the fucking game as hard as you can, in the end it all evens out...and don't tell your parents where you heard that word."

[Matt_Cohn]

At the top of this page you will see a series of embedded folders:
GolfClubAtlas Discussion Group
    GolfClubAtlas.com
         Golf Course Architecture

Is it possible to add another discussion forum - call it off topic, call it other, call it whatever we want. The architecture forum will remain pure and at the same time we'll have a space for our other topics. Because people obviously like talking about sports, food, and playing partners on this website. We're golfers. It's what we do. So take a look, and maybe Ran is the one to ask. Is this possible?

GolfClubAtlas Discussion Group
    GolfClubAtlas.com
         Golf Course Architecture
         Golf, Off-Topic
         Playing Partners
         Other, Off-Topic

[ForkaB]

Right on, Matt

Of course, there used to be a second tab called "Courses" which linked into Ran and John's reviews.  It allowed you to add your comments.  I spent a good bit of time commenting on the 50 or so courses on the list that I had played, but nobody responded and sometime later, the forum was deleted or at least emasculated.  Sic transit gloria GCA.

[Jason Blasberg]

This entire discussion is a prime example of the "hate" part of my love/hate relationship with GCA.  

There is more pendantic BS quibbled about here than in most grade schools.  

If you don't like a post don't read it more than once, if it's that off topic it'll get deleted.  

Pat M., while I happen to agree with you on this one, for the most part, provoking an entire discussion about the off topic stuff isin't likely to help (and I admit to be guilty of some ot stuff myself).   See, you just caused me to post this!  

[JLahrman]

I would support the idea for a separate OT forum.  Another board I post on takes this approach and it works quite well.  The fact of the matter is that this board has produced a lot of friendships and some OT talk naturally comes along with that.  Even architecture threads fall victim to this (I can't name names, but I have read the story about somebody laying up on the 16th at CPC about 25 times).

[Ed_Baker]

Be careful my gentle snowflakes (plagurized from Lewis Black) we don't want to lose gems like the Fireball Roberts thread in the name of structure.

Besides the treehouse is just that, a place where friends gather and converse, we don't have to open threads we're not interested in, nor do we have to respond to mean spirited posts.

I consider GCA to be a giant cyber golf club and I like the membership just fine. We are still interesting and diverse, post away, enjoy.

BTW, Powerful Patrick has once again chummed the waters and once again we all bit.

[Tom Huckaby]

Shivas:

Page 5 is one thing.

Page 2 is another.

I queried aout this "churn" issue earlier in this thread, haven't gotten a response.  Seriously, how hard is it to make one click and go to page 2?  Two clicks get you to page 3... The topics are all clearly marked as to read and unread, and damn near always (except in the case of Mucci and Clayman) have very descriptive Subject lines...

Of all the arguments against OT topics, this seems to me to be the oddest.  I just don't get it.  Are people REALLY that time-constrained and/or lazy?

TH

[Jay Flemma]

the only thing I'll throw out is that we should be careful the problem doesnt get so pandemic that good people start dropping out.

[Joe Hancock]

To piggyback a bit on what KBM had said above, I sometimes wonder what posts need to be about in order to stir up discussion. Not looking for pity by pointing this out, but I started a thread not too long ago that got zero interest, and I couldn't figure out why. Then, we get threads about poking out large windows with bad golf shots and it generates response. I may be irrelevant with my thought processes.

I like the occasional O/T as much as anyone. I also admit that a high percentage of my posts are either agronomic, or smart alek...not always focusing on architectural aspects. Fun is fun, but when it becomes a barrage of "look where I've been" threads or downright inane topics, then it really does dillute the intent of this website.....IMO.

Just to see if this really was as dumb a question as interest would indicate, I foolishly present this again:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21986

I also think there is a sense of validation that comes from having the Mucci's/ TEPauls/ Macwoods/ Etc. reply to threads...which in turn encourages more participation. Not that it matters, just the way things seem to be.

I would rather see a few of the relevant threads stay on the front page a bit longer, as has ben pointed out.

Joe

[Brian Noser]

I find it funny that somepeople are discussing how they do not like OT threads in an "OT" thread only contributing to the madness!

Just trying to make light of the situation

[Tom Huckaby]

I find it funny that somepeople are discussing how they do not like OT threads in an "OT" thread only contributing to the madness!

Just trying to make light of the situation

Brian, that thought had DEFINITELY occurred to me as well.  In fact I believe others have called Patrick on this when he's done previous versions of this thread.  

Joe - I remember your Topic.  My take is this:  it's a great question, but would require a LOT of carefully considered thought in order to give a meaningful answer.  You have here a forum where a common complaint is things get "lost" when they move to page 2.  In that context, how can one expect the time and effort required to answer your question?

Note I am not condoning this - it's an observation, that's it.

95% of this forum is sound-bite length, because that's all people seem to have time for.

Of course the best posts are those that are given more effort.

But perhaps does this answer your question?

TH

[Adam_F_Collins]

Blah, blah, blah

[Tom Huckaby]

Blah, blah, blah

Indeed.  Talk about being covered before.  But we do have some newer people here, who do deserve answers.

TH

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I sensed more than a touch of parody in Brian's many threads and just figured he was making fun of the numerous threads which seem to serve very little substantive purpose other than to allow posters to list where they have played.   Unfortunately as is the case with all parody-- good and bad-- a number of posters just played right into it and started listing away . . .

At least that is what I thought . . . only Brian knows for sure and I doubt he'll come clean.  

Speaking of clean . . . I was considering parodying these types of threads myself with a thread entitled:   "Which Clubs have the Best Restroom Accessories."   I was going to post a photograph of the portable outhouse by the 14th tee at Rustic Canyon, which during the worst of the winter winds had two large wooden boards leaning against it, bracing it from blowing over.  

. . . I figured that Brian beat me to it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick,  I sensed more than a touch of parody in Brian's many threads and just figured he was making fun of the numerous threads which seem to serve very little substantive purpose other than to allow posters to list where they have played.   Unfortunately as is the case with all parody-- good and bad-- a number of posters just played right into it and started listing away . . .

At least that is what I thought . . . only Brian knows for sure and I doubt he'll come clean.  

Speaking of clean . . . I was considering parodying these types of threads myself with a thread entitled:   "Which Clubs have the Best Restroom Accessories."   I was going to post a photograph of the portable outhouse by the 14th tee at Rustic Canyon, which during the worst of the winter winds had two large wooden boards leaning against it, bracing it from blowing over.  

. . . I figured that Brian beat me to it.

Dave - I took Brian's many threads exactly like that as well.  That's why I also posted in none of them and cringed every time someone else did.

But come on man, let's see that photo!  

[Bill Gayne]

I like the way the Redskins handle OT on their website.

http://www.extremeskins.com/portal/

Basically three discussion groups:

• The Stadium
Enjoy speaking about the Washington Redskins in friendly confines amongst your fellow Skins fans. Hail Skins!  

 • The Tailgate
Use this forum to participate in off-topic discussions (politics, entertainment, history, technology, humor, etc.) Please note that some threads may contain material not suitable for viewing at work or around children – view at your own discretion.  

 • The Pressbox
A moderated forum for use during chats with current and former players, coaches, and Front Office Staff of the Redskins!  

(I'll probably get killed by all the Eagle fans but hail to the Redskins)

[Anthony_Nysse]

  Not knowing exactly who is lurking, though we know that there are a lot of lurkers, many of whom we respect and talk about openly in the architecture forum, I think that it is best to stay away from the "off topic" threads. Trying not to be bias, I think that the discussions about agronomy have a strong bearing on architecture. Different grasses makes for different playing surfaces and different looks of a golf course, plus there are a lot of guys in the field that are members here. I don't believe that there are too many "car parkers" and "bathroom attendants" that frequent this site. I think that anything to do with owning, building or managing a golf course are solid topics, along with the obvious, architects, builders and designers. I think the "OT" is only turning others away from this site that was built on discussions of architecture. I can only hope that "OT" can either be monitored or put into a separate forum with hockey!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Voytek Wilczak]

If I had to live in a world ran by Patrick Mucci I would kill myself.

[Andrew Summerell]

I only come here for discussion about architecture. If a thread doesn't look like it's about architecture then I don't read it & it doesn't both me.

If we all did the same, people would stop posting the other stuff.

[paul cowley]

....a lot of my time spent here is about relief from constant GCArch and I enjoy provocative and witty OT threads....I don't think the forum is by any means broken and that gives me concern over its fixing....but as much as I probably wouldn't thrive in a Muccian world, I sure wouldn't want to lose it...... sometimes a little relief can be a good thing.

[Gordon Oneil]

I haven't been around long enough and I hope that I will never have the time to concern myself with the cliques, factions or the feuds within this website.  The biggest compliment that I can give GCA, and most anything else for that matter, is that it is interesting, enlightening AND entertaining.  ALL mangenese and chinch bugs all the time would burn out most people (that is an attempt to interject some humor, not trivialize this phenomenal website).
It seems to me that answer to the frustration with OT threads is the same as the disgust with objectionable material on television.
If you don't like it, change the channel.
Or in this case, click on most any other thread.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I haven't been around long enough and I hope that I will never have the time to concern myself with the cliques, factions or the feuds within this website.  The biggest compliment that I can give GCA, and most anything else for that matter, is that it is interesting, enlightening AND entertaining.  ALL mangenese and chinch bugs all the time would burn out most people (that is an attempt to interject some humor, not trivialize this phenomenal website).
It seems to me that answer to the frustration with OT threads is the same as the disgust with objectionable material on television.
If you don't like it, change the channel.
Or in this case, click on most any other thread.

Sometimes those who havent spent as much time on here as the rest of us have a better perspective than some who have been here a while and gotten a little too serious with themselves.

Gordon, you would have loved this place about 5 years ago before some of the folks around here got a little full of their own self importance.   I used to come on here everyday, in fact I went through withdrawl symptoms if I missed a day.  But given the general tone of the site now I just dont miss it as much as I used to.  I probably check it once or twice a week now.  And I count among its members many people that I am happy to say have become very good friends over the years.  

When I first came here it was a site where people who enjoyed golf and GCA got together to have a little light hearted discourse, and yeah maybe even learn a thing or two (kind of sounds like the intro to the old Fat Albert Cartoon).  Nowdays if you dont have the proper views, opinions, or heaven forbid you post something that someone else isnt interested in you can expect to get yourself some greif.  But dont worry about it.

I still come here just for fun, if I wanted to get my butt chewed for not staying on point I could just stay out in the other room and listen to my wife.  So I guess if all the freedom gets squeezed out of here in the interest of conformity then I will just have to be sad and lament its loss.  And be happy for the friends I have made on here.

However in the meantime until then, have fun on here and dont worry about the rif-raff.  

[RJ_Daley]

I just read "City of Fallen Angels" by John Berendt.  As I read this thread, and knowing most of the contributors, I can't help but think upon the similarities that Berendt highlights as the "society" players of Venice, and the society that GCA.com sometimes evokes.  

We are a community of characters here on GCA.  We are people that for the most part enjoy each other's company and share a common passion with diverse opinions of that rather obscure subject of GCA.  But there is more to a forum that is long standing than GCA to bond friendships.  And, if we didn't have expression beyond mere GCA commentary, we would not get a sense of each other and not have that common humanity that allows friendships.  

We would become an effete, inbred, and pedantic lot if all we stuck to was GCA 24/7.  Or, we would become a lecture hall where certain know-it-alls would dominate, give instruction on what is quality GCA and who are the best GCAs.  That could lead to alliances to shout down "out of the box thinkers" and generally become an elitist cocktail party of royalists.

I'm in the crowd that is advocating for a seperate "fun" button for OT, banter, wit, and listing all the courses one has played, with all the celebrities one knows, at which club houses we have enjoyed a pie plate shower, etc.  I'll bet if we get such a button, it will have far more activity than all GCA all the time.

I find it interesting that a few archies have gone so far as to note that they come here for a little light hearted banter.  Perhaps it is to refresh the mind that is so occupied with GCA all the time.  It seems to me that those archies know that they are engaging in an OT bit of humor with someone that can switch right back to giving them a serious opinion of GCA, when those relavant topics invariably come up, and they seek ideas on the topic.  

And as for Joe, who did start a very compelling GCA topic IMHO, and didn't get but 1 response, I guess you needed to add a buzz word in the title, like "which approach at NGLA" or some exclusive topic where folks can brag a little and talk over everyone elses head.  

[Eric Franzen]

My experience from working with the technical and social structure of one of Europe’s largest golf communities on the net is that OT-topics or OT-forums is a necessary evil for any specialist community.

OT-threads and forums is great way of stopping thread jacking of core topic discussions. Sooner or later all forums that consist of regular users develop an eco system of their own where some level of communication and interaction between members, besides discussions on the pre-defined topic, is a natural and necessary part of the evolution.

This is one of the most dynamic, well-informed and interesting discussion groups that I have come across on the net. Things could be a lot worse with infected flame wars between groups of users (not to be confused with heated discussions and debates on certain sensitive topics) and population of net-trolls just hanging around to mess things up and upset other users.