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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« on: February 23, 2006, 10:25:22 AM »
Last year, I was able to get down to play the 2nd (North)
course at Forest Creek, both of which are Tom Fazio
designs.  Luckily, our Crusty friend was able to join me
(wasn't planned that way) and give me a tour.

Sorry, I don't have the yardages for all of the holes.

#1  par 4, 381 yards


#4  par 3, 168 yards


#5  par 4, 429 yards


#5 again, green falls away


#6  par 4


#6  approach


#7  par 4, ~450 yards


#7  approach to fallaway green


#8  par 4 ~470 yards


#8  approach


#9  par 5


#9  approach to L-shaped green


#10  par 5


#10  approach


#11  par 4


#12  par 4, 406 yards


#12  approach


#14  par 3, 187 yards


#15  par 4


#15 approach


#16   par 3


#17  par 4


#17  approach

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2006, 10:33:58 AM »
Thanks Scott, awesome looking course. Do the two courses play similar or different?

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2006, 10:55:34 AM »
I should mention that the club is in Pinehurst, NC.

Mike,

The two courses play fairly different.  The North course has
many more waste areas in play, making it 'tighter'.  Crusty Jim
says it plays something like a couple of strokes harder than
the South.  I played them (4 years apart) about as differently
as anyone ever has (about 25 strokes, no exaggeration).  
Both are walkable.  And yes, the North has 'The Look'.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2006, 10:58:38 AM »
Very pretty.  It reminds me of Kinloch, where the large lake doesn't come into play until the end of the round.

ForkaB

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2006, 11:04:41 AM »
I can imagine standing in front of St. Peter:

Pedro:  Well, Ricardo you've had a d****d good life, but do you remember when you forgot to rake that bunker at Cypress Point in 2001?

Ricardo:  Si Signore........

Pedro:  Good bambino.  I'll see you in a few million years after you've spent limbo on the ground crew at Forest Creek (North).

mikes1160

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2006, 11:18:54 AM »
Rich,

Exactly........that look is soooooo hard to maintain.

"Dances With Flymos"

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2006, 11:26:09 AM »
Course looks wonderful.  One possible criticism though from only looking at pictures, which makes it hard to judge, is the drive on 6,7, 10 and 11 all look awful similar and all bunched together.  They all seem to feature a drive where one wants to carry a hill I assume or it may be that one ends up short of the hill with a blind second.  Are these drives as similar as they appear from photos and is this a fair criticism?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2006, 12:03:27 PM »
Course looks quite nice except the bunkering is well over the top.  Too many and often too big.  What is it these days where archies think if one bunker will do we might as well put three in?  

Does anybody have skills with altering the photos?  If somebody could try eliminating the entire bunker complex on the left side of the 15th fairway and replace it with a natural rough area centered around the high point I would appreciate it.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

ForkaB

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 12:11:55 PM »
Yes ,Sean

Today, the iron rules of bunkering seem to be:

1.  Over the top!
2.  Under the bottom!
3.  Sand sells better than grass!
4.  When in doubt, pick up a copy of the latest Victoria's Secret catalogue!

Where did they go wrong...... :'(

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 12:17:26 PM »
Yes ,Sean

Today, the iron rules of bunkering seem to be:

1.  Over the top!
2.  Under the bottom!
3.  Sand sells better than grass!
4.  When in doubt, pick up a copy of the latest Victoria's Secret catalogue!

Where did they go wrong...... :'(

Rich

You shouldn't down talk Vic Secret's catalogues.  That is the Hillbilliebobjoe Playboy.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2006, 12:25:03 PM »
Course looks quite nice except the bunkering is well over the
top.  Too many and often too big.  What is it these days
where archies think if one bunker will do we might as well put three in?  

Does anybody have skills with altering the photos?  If
somebody could try eliminating the entire bunker complex on
the left side of the 15th fairway and replace it with a natural
rough area centered around the high point I would appreciate it.  

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

I seem to recall you liking Tobacco Road quite a bit, which is
laden with many large waste areas.  What is the difference here?  
Do I need to post our photos from there again to show the
similarities?  If the 3 bunker complexes on the left of #15
were one large, continuous waste area (as seen in a number
of the other holes here and at TR), would it make a difference?  Why?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 12:26:00 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2006, 12:39:20 PM »
Great shots!

Crusty is a certainly a very gracious host and an excellent tour guide. One of the great things about Forest Creek is that the two courses are so very different in look and feel. They are both very challenging and I must agree with Jim that the North plays a bot more difficult. This is primarily due to the severity of the green complexes. A missed approach leaves you with an extremely difficult recovery.

I haqve not been there since the new locker room was completed. I hear it is a very comfortable "Home away from home".

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2006, 12:45:47 PM »
Great shots!

I haqve not been there since the new locker room was completed. I hear it is a very comfortable "Home away from home".

Rob,
I would say the "barn" is my favorite locker room i have ever been in.  great design, great feel, just loved everything about it!

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2006, 01:18:31 PM »
Course looks quite nice except the bunkering is well over the
top.  Too many and often too big.  What is it these days
where archies think if one bunker will do we might as well put three in?  

Does anybody have skills with altering the photos?  If
somebody could try eliminating the entire bunker complex on
the left side of the 15th fairway and replace it with a natural
rough area centered around the high point I would appreciate it.  

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

I seem to recall you liking Tobacco Road quite a bit, which is
laden with many large waste areas.  What is the difference here?  
Do I need to post our photos from there again to show the
similarities?  If the 3 bunker complexes on the left of #15
were one large, continuous waste area (as seen in a number
of the other holes here and at TR), would it make a difference?  Why?

Scott

The waste areas at The Road are just that waste areas.  The course looks more carved out of a sandy area a bit rough and ready.  The sandy areas on this course look like they were plopped into the course.  It looks like the designer is trying to have it both ways.  Rustic, but still a country club course.  What happens is that the course seems predictable.  Sometimes the sand doesn't look to work well and I don't don't see the point of building some of these areas.  Some examples are:

Right fairway #8.  Why such a mammoth amount of sand?

Left fairway #9.  Why so much sand?

Right greenside #10.  What is going on there?

Left and front greenside bunkers #14.  Can't the green just fallaway there?

Left fairway #15.  What is all that about?  This bunkering spoils the simple beauty of the front greenside bunker.  That is a great bunker and all the hole needs.

Right greenside bunker #16.  I amnot sure if the water is guarding the bunker or the bunker is guarding the water.

Right fairway bunker #17.  Why not just make that bit water?  What is the idea of bunkering a water hazard?

These are just opinions.  Perhaps you could persuade to think otherwise.  I have my beefs against TR as well.  The main one being that the course may be too natural in that the layout is not a good course to walk.  

Ciao

Sean





New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2006, 01:22:40 PM »
Hey all,

  Those are some really good pics, I may not there that at that point, may 2005, the lake was just added and not grown in yet. Since the sides have grown in well and made the lake look more natural.

  I have been down there and played the courses a bunch of times over the past two years, and enjoy both the courses very much.

 I preferr the north course because I feel it doesnt look so "forced" onto the land, like the south course looks in some places. It definatly plays a good 2-3 shots harder, mostly thanks to holes 6-9 which are really long and hard from the tips. The greens are much smaller and have less slope in them vs. the south as well. While the best part of the course could be the variety of hole lengths. They have some great short 4's (#1 and #13) and the best hole on the complex at #12.

 Thanks...
H.P.S.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2006, 03:02:52 PM »
Scott:

Nice job.

I may be able to add some useful information in response to some of the comments and questions that your pictures have prompted.  

Regarding the question about which fairway bunkers are strategic, I will tell you that the fairway bunkering on the North course is much more "strategic" than that on the South, or any other Fazio course I can think of. I am among those who thinks that some of Fazio's bunkering serves no strategic purpose. I guess that depends on your definition of "strategic". For me, in order for any hazard or obstacle to be considered strategic it must cause the player to consider it when choosing a club and an intended line. There should be some advantage gained by successfully challenging the hazard and price to pay on the next shot if you play away from it. Of course, there must be a penalty for hitting into the hazard (or waste).  I just played the North course in my mind, and it seems to me that all of the fairway bunkers and waste areas on the par 4's and par 5's meet that test to varying degrees depending on the placement of the pin and the wind. In every case I can think of, you are rewarded if you are willing and able to challenge the sand/water and pull it off.

Regarding the amount of sand and the expense of maintaining it, I should point out that all of the sand on the North course plays as waste ("through the green"). All of the sand is natural to the site. The sand is not really “forced” onto the course. In most cases the bunkers/waste areas were created simply by digging just far enough to expose the sand underneath. Some effort is made to maintain the greenside sand, but the fairway sand waste is "as you find it”.  In most cases, if you remove the fairway sand, you reduce or eliminate strategy from the tee shot. For the average player there is plenty room to play away from the sand. It really is a factor for the better player who has the talent (or thinks he has) to challenge the sand in order to gain the best angle to the green.

With regard to the question of blind second shots on #6,7,19,11. In all four cases the tee shot is hit into or over a slope in the fairway. Most pretty good players can easily reach the top of the slope and over. I am the shortest hitter on the planet, so I often fail to reach the top of the slope. Even then, I have no trouble seeing the green. However, from there, I usually can’t reach the green. I am just looking for the best spot to lay-up. BTW, #10 is a par 5, and there is a clear view of the target for your second shot.

For those who care, here are the yardages:

Hole   Par         Championship      Long         intermediate      
1   4   381      370      352        312      276      
2   3   209      185      167      143      114
3   5   545      522      482      423      414
4   3   168      159      150      145          99
5   4   429      409               409       385       346   
6   4   387      366      352      352      267   
7   4   455      415      378      378      311
8   4   469      430      386      386      347   
9   5   548      492      466      466      422   
OUT   36            3591               3348                  3142

10   5   556      532      512      512      480   
11   4   442      410      382      382      331   
12   4   406      386      366      366      324   Uphill
13   4   396      350      322      299      244   
14   3   187      180      159      145      122   
15   4   432      403      369      369      248   
16   3   185      163      130      130      112   
17   4   426      386      353      353      306   
18   5   518      493      493      426      407   
IN      36             3508                   3303                   3086                                                   
TOTAL  72           7139                   6651                   6228                  
Construction is underway to build a longer (about 20 yds) back tee on #16. I presume the other tees will also move back.

I hope some of this is helpful, especially to those who have not played the course.

Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2006, 03:13:03 PM »
Quote
For me, in order for any hazard or obstacle to be considered strategic it must cause the player to consider it when choosing a club and an intended line. There should be some advantage gained by successfully challenging the hazard and price to pay on the next shot if you play away from it. Of course, there must be a penalty for hitting into the hazard (or waste).

Jim, I was wondering the same thing after redanman's comment. Yours is a good definition, but I don't agree with all of it.  I see nothing wrong with a hazard 'fooling' a player, tempting him to carry a trap or play alongside some body of water when in fact the better play was the other way.  I certainly wouldn't want it overdone (err, I guess that applies to most everything in golf ::)), but I see it as valid and valuable.  
Mike Strantz did this to me on number #17 at True Blue--I hit it up the right, along the lake and found myself with a slightly poorer angle and the ball above my feet.
This comment has nothing to do with this course or Scott's post (thanks Scott, I enjoyed the pics quite a bit).
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 03:23:49 PM »
Andy:

I agree with your point. We have a few of those bunkers on the South course. I call them "sucker bunkers", because they present the illusion that you should flirt with them, while in fact, there is not advantage in doing so. It seem to me that they work best on a resort or public course. On a private course, they are only going to fool the members a few times.

I can't think of a case on the North course where playing away from the sand leaves a better position that flirting with the sand.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Andrew Cunningham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2006, 03:51:13 PM »
Great photos, but I'm a little concerned as to what tee Scott and Jim (if I'm guessing correctly) were playing.  The pictures do not truly illustrate the difficulty of a lot of the North course's tee shots.  Like the 15th - the picture makes the carry look like a no-brainer when in fact you have to carry it at least 225 as I recall and that is to the left side of the fairway, which leaves a brutally difficult approach with the water jutting out right in front of the green.  I of course was an idiot and tried to knock it on from 205 and failed miserably.  From the tips this course would challenge the best in the game.  It would be tough to find a better 36 hole facility in which to be a member.  Nice locker room too.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2006, 03:51:18 PM »
Quote
I call them "sucker bunkers", because they present the illusion that you should flirt with them, while in fact, there is not advantage in doing so. It seem to me that they work best on a resort or public course.
Jim, I bet that is exactly right.  And I was one of those 'suckers' at True Blue (sucker bunkers--I like that!)  Actually made me laugh to myself when I was out there and comparing my drive to a safer, easier drive away from the water.
I do wonder how many members would continue to drive over some bunker at a private course, never realizing they were finding the tougher side of the fairway...
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2006, 04:03:51 PM »
Andrew:

I should be playing the inteermediate tees, but I usually play the longs because the guys I play with are longer hitters. I figure that gives me an advantage, because they often miss the greens that I can't reach, and I have a better short game.

If #15 required a 225yd carry I would never reach the fairway. the guy who plays the championship tees, should have no problem with a 225yd carry.  

Scott hits it pretty long, but I think he also played the longs.

Andy:
If a member continues to try to challenge the sucker bunkers, he has gone from "sucker" to "stupid". Every club has a few of those.

Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2006, 04:13:13 PM »
Andrew,

I played the tips, and I'm (usually) long enough to 'handle'
that distance (also, FC is pretty fast & firm).  On this day, I  
just happened to be spraying it ('duck-hooking' is a proper
term) all over the course, and I would have stuggled just as
much had I played the ladies tees.  :P  70 yards left in the
trees/gunk is still....oh, never mind.

As for the pics, I took the ones from the tees from the tips,
but they are zoomed in, in order to see more detail.  If I
didn't zoom in, you'd see 50 yards in the trees on both sides
and couldn't make out the hole much.

Ian Andrew

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 04:28:02 PM »
I liked what I saw.

I struggle with the comment that this course has too many bunkers when others similar but by more "popular" architects are works of art. I know it's easy to have a go a Fazio, because to many of you he represents what you don't want in golf, but I find this course a lot more engaging than a lot of his other work. I'd be curious to see it in person to make a more reflective judgement - and fortunately I'm supposed to play there in 5 weeks time.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2006, 04:54:42 PM »
Ian

I am not having a go at Fazio.  I am having a go at the bunkering of this course.  In general I prefer the keep it simple look.  Of course there will always be exceptions, but they are not architect specific.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ken_Cotner

Re:Photos of Forest Creek (North)
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2006, 04:58:55 PM »
Thanks for the photos, Scott, and for the comments, Jim.

I love both courses.  One thing I seem to recall on the North that hasn't been mentioned is the number of fallaway greens.  Very unusual, and fun.  Works well with the firm conditions.

And the locker room is sublime.

I'm really just posting to crow about getting to play there tomorrow.  ;D  Not sure which course, though...

Ken

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