Best Course designed by the Shark

[Erich]

I had read recently some praise of Norman's courses.  I have myself have played around 9 of them and I have mixed reviews.  I was curious what course you thought Norman had done a great job on.  My personal favorite is the TPC at Sugarloaf.  You could definately tell the attention to detail was high.  The only problem is with the course is the number of homes crammed on to it.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Norman is a tough guy to figure out as some of his stuff is great (Reserve at Litchfield in SC, Oldfield in SC, and Sharks Tooth in FL panhandle come to mind quickly), and some of it leaves you shaking your head (PGA West, and Doral White Course come to mind quickly).

To look closer at those mentioned PGA West and Doral, Greg is trying a "crushed stone in liew of rough" thing and it just doesnt seem to work.  

At many of his courses he seems comitted to the ground game option (especially the Reserve) preferring to leave the run up option and calling for the area to be firm for that type of shot.  I had an opportunity to meet Greg a couple years ago and hear him talk about his design philisophy and the ground game/run up shots.  He used a quote that I have used a few hundred times since.  He said "I Believe they made the ball round for a reason.  I believe it was meant to roll"  I think that was a great line, and a great philisophy to have.  

Sugarloaf is also good for the strategic values and I concurr with what you said Erich.  It is a different course from some of the ones mentioned above where he seemed to move a lot less dirt.  More lay of the land type courses.  I also enjoy Sugarloaf alot and think it is a great course for what it is intended for.  Great risk reward holes, and great spectator course for the tournament.

I also put his course at The Pointe at Lake Norman (No the lake was named years ago, it is just an interesting coincidence) in Charlotte in this category of spectacular course, good strategically where it looks like he moved more dirt.

Again by and large I have greatly enjoyed most of Greg's stuff.

[Greg Ramsay]

There was a mention a while back that Greg Norman Design has an Australian division and a US division.  I can't comment on their work in the US, but here in Australia they are doing a lot of good work with both a mix of great sites (The National), good sites (Brookwater) and some very difficult sites as well (Sanctuary Lakes).  I particularly think that their finishing of bunkers and greens is very good- an unashamed compliment to Mackenzie and the Sandbelt style of bunkering.  I haven't played any of their courses enough to get to know their inherent strategic aspects, but they certainly appear to be playable with wide open fairways which award shots into certain areas.  I know Ran was a big fan of Bob Harrison's course at the National, and so are many other contributors to this site.  I am keen to see the video put out by the National GC about the contrasting design/construction of the 2 new courses there (Norman's Moonah and TWP's Ocean).

I think that the team at GN Design are very excited about the private course they built for Kerry Packer in regional New South Wales.  I hear its very good, but no one is ever going to get to see it!

Take a peak at www.brookwater.com.au then go to 'play' and then to 'Greg Norman Golf Course' and then to the multimedia library, it has an excellent slide show of the style of bunkering and approach shots that is often found at GN courses in Australia.  This is totally different to the look of many GN courses in America, for example Wild Heron.

I understand that early on Bob Harrison did some work in the US, and did the routing for the TPC at Sugarloaf, and perhaps some initial construction as well. Perhaps it is closer in style to the Australian courses

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth --

Course at Wente Vineyards (Livermore, CA)

The Medalist (Hobe Sound, FL) w Pete Dye

His effort at PGA West is OK but given the utterly boring terrain it's tough to give it more than a fair rating although there are a few holes of note.

Agree with Turboe regarding the crush stone idea. It really doesn't work well.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I caught much of Tiburon in Florida on one of those "Help the Hackers Through a Series of Lessons From Jim McLean or Some Other Famous Teacher" pieces on The Golf Channel, and it didn't look much less boring than most of the rest of Florida's boring golf.

I will give Norman (and Davis Love) credit for the love and use of chipping areas.  I feel that Norman "gets it" in terms of what makes for good golf, I'm just not sure about the execution.

Don't forget that Doonbeg is a Norman course.

[Lou_Duran]

I've only played two Norman courses and each is at the opposite end of the scale.  Sugarloaf is fantastic- playable, challenging, full of strategic options, a lot of variety.  Creeks @ Beechwood (north of Fort Worth, TX), is a brutal, disjointed, featureless, piece of _ _ _ _.  The course is an engineering fiasco, extremely expensive for its low-profile/minimalist (but in the floodplain) design, and a financial flop.  While one should not make judgements based on such a small sample, the two courses seem to reflect the ambivalent feelings I get from observing Norman from afar.  He can either be great (golfer, gracious person, designer) or very disappointing, with little in between.

[A.G._Crockett]

The main drawback to Sugarloaf is massive, massive distances between greens and tees that make the course unwalkable.  In fact, the shuttle players in the BellSouth PGA event at some of these walks!  Normally, of course, that's a real estate issue, and the archie has no control, but it may keep the course from some of the recognition it might otherwise deserve.
I have heard great things about the Norman course at Barefoot Landing at Myrtle Beach (there is also a DLIII course and a Dye course in the development).  It supposedly has an extremely small no. of acres that are mown.  I want to say 75 acres or so, but that may not be right.

[schultzmj]

Have played a few Norman course.  Live 5 minutes from Sugarloaf and though I am not a member, have played it a number of times.

I think it is a great test and a lot of fun to play.  Hat eht 18th hole but that was changed at the last minute when it was decided it would be a TPC course and they wanted a good 18th hole for grandstands, TV coverage.  Original 18th hole had the green on the other side of the lake and it played as a long par 4.

Further, there is a new nine at Sugarloaf that I think is better than the original two nines used in the tour event.

The other I have played is the Norman course at Barefoot Landing.  Again, fun to play and a good test from all the way back.  Played it with my brother who is a 20 (I am a 2) and we got equal enjoyment with him playing an up tee and me playing all the way back.  Only problem with this course is that it eill be ruined by the development around it.  

16th hole is little par 3 (probably 130 from back) that plays right at the intercoastal waterway.  You stand on the tee and the green is partially blocked by some dunes on the right and it looks like if you miss long, you will land in the intercoastal (though there is plenty of room behind).  Great little hole except...it is surrounded by tall aprtment like buildings.  Standing on the tee, you could carry on a conversation with virtually anyone sitting on their patio jusy by speaking in a normal volume.

I know the non-golf areas around the course have nothing to do with the design but it certainly effects the enjoyment.

[Erich]

Yeah, I had heard that there were problems on the Beechtree course.  I personally love Meodowbrook Farms in Houston that he did a while back.

As for the Great White, I just hated it.  I can see using the crushed shells once or twice but it seemed he wanted to use it on other projects.  There are hints of it at Tiburon and PGA West.  

I really like Tiburon from a playing perspective.  I thought the chipping areas were great.  And, I love all the options you had when you were in the fairway.  You could fly it to the hole or you could bump and run it, or even fly it just short and let it release on their.

Greg,
I liked your thought on comparing Sugarloaf to an Australian type course with Bob Harrison routing.  I will keep that in the back of my mind the next time I play there.

The thing I like about Norman's work is the attention he gives the greens and the surrounding chipping areas.  That is what grabs my attention more than any other feature.

The other thing I give Norman credit for is his diversity.  He has RTJ style bunkers at Wente, he has an Augusta simplicity at Meodowbrook Farms, he has a combo of St. Andrews and Royal Melbourne at Tiburon/Medalist.  And, then he has some crazy stuff at Great White/PGA West.

And, as far as that comment about using your real name, their is no point anymore.  You get so trashed by posting your opinion sometimes, its better to just say what you feel and avoid being personally attacked.  Because in the end its just one person's opinion.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd like to agree with those who have lauded the Norman course at Barefoot Resort in SC.  The stretch from 6-11 is truly superb, and it's thoughtful and interesting throughout.

However, it will be turned into a condo canyon, and unfortunately that will ultimately detract considerably.

[Steve Hyden]

I'm a nattering nabob of negativity, but I like it that way.  I've played both courses at Champion's Gate and Tiburon and all three are classic modern Florida-flat, boring and devoid of imagination.  The International at Champion's Gate has ridiclous Bahia grass rough where you can lose your ball if your drive lands three yards off the fairway.  Six hour rounds anyone?  Maybe it's true that it's difficult to design a good course on flat property, but the Old Course isn't bad, as I recall, and neither is Seminole.  Fine Florida courses like World Woods-Pine Barrens and El Diablo don't qualify for this discussion because the rolling land is conducive to interesting golf course design.

I think the real problem is that the great designers (old and new) have somewhat of an artistic heart and it shows in their architecture, while mechanics like Nicklaus and Norman, for all their great playing ability, don't have the artistry and subtlety that is required to produce great courses.  In other words, how can you produce a work of art if you're not an artist?

[Greg Ramsay]

On that artistic note Tommy, Bob Harrison takes a lot of pride in the artistry of his golf courses- and I have to say that i think it is one of the strongpoints of GN Design courses out here, they really are wonderful works of art with some beautiful bunkering, exhilarating tee-shots, and great synergy between the look of the golf course and the surrounds.

In the US I would imagine that GN's wide chipping areas would be a refreshing change from the rough around the greens.  This again is a direct compliment to Australian & British golf, where the golfer has a range of options to get the ball near the hole if they miss the green.

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[Paul Daley]

Shark has a brilliant knack of designing exciting par-5s. It is a feature that I see repeated time and again in his courses.

[Erich]

I will agree with on the par 5s.  I have played Champions Gate and was not really impressed with it, but I did love the strategy on the long par 5 (17th I believe).  He designed so you could not go at in two.  He even made it more punishing if you did decide to go at in two.  The green was tiny.  The smart play would be to come in at it with 8iron-wedge otherwise the prospect of holding it with a three wood or even a driver would be nearly impossible.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Nice to hear that Norman has designed some enjoyable and playable courses.  Unfortunately, I have had the experience of playing Tiburon and PGA West.  Admittedly they were both pretty new when I saw them But I found them both nearly unplayable.  

Lack of rough or other containment led to the ball running into all sorts of trouble after  passable shots.  One shot at PGA West rolled into the water after a drive with a slight fade, the ball landed almost dead center of the fairway.  I found Tiburon had some of the same problems.  

Have some of these design/maintenance issues been addressed or is this still the case?  

I have admired Mr. Norman's story and career and would love to see him succeed in this next career.

[Mike_Cirba]

The par five 9th hole at Norman's Barefoot Landing course is excellent, and vaguely reminiscent of the 13th at ANGC without the dogleg, but with similar strategy, if that makes any sense.

The par three 10th hole is world class.

[Mike_Duffy]

Greg Norman is responsible for one of the best and most enjoyable courses I have played anywhere, namely the Bali Nirwana Golf Course at Tanah Lot on the Indonesian Island of Bali.

Located in a spectacular setting with the warm waters of the Indian Ocean lapping at two sides of the course, Norman, Harrison and their team were given a splendid piece of ground wt work with including rice paddies, coves and inlets and gently undulating terrain.

The par 3 seventh is one of the most memorable par threes I have played anywhere, which requires a shot over an inlet of the Indian Ocean to a slightly elevated green some 170 yards distant.

The 12th hole is similar but not quite as dramatic. There are a couple of good par fives on the course and the scenery is just magical.

The mounding and greens are top notch and the  upkeep of the course is first class. It is not cheap to play but well worthy of the experience. It is not a course that you will struggle to remember aspects of, in fact, the more one thinks of the golf played there, the more pleasurable are the memories.

[jimmy yahnis]

As a member of The Reserve Club, I am glad to see that someone else thinks it is a special golf course. When Greg addressed the members prior to construction, he stated that "he was designing the course to be as enjoyable for the 100 shooter as well as the par shooter, and that is harder to do than is commonly believed." He has accomplished this goal as I am excited to play there everytime I go out.

I also enjoyed the Norman Course at Barfoot Landing, but think it is not as good as the Reserve. First, it was built on a parcel of land not as visually appealing (excepting the stretch on the Intercoastal Waterway), and secondly, development will detract in the near future.

[von Hayek]

Interesting there's been no mention of Doonbeg. Maybe people haven't played it yet, but personally, I loved it.

[jg7236]

Norman should just stay with golf and wine because he has no idea how to design a golf course.  Norman and the people who work in his design firm think they are god's gift to the world, give me a break!!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I really liked Wente Vineyards, nothing supremely new, but at the same time there were some fun holes and is was a decent use of some really varied pieces.

PGA West receives a lot of criticism, but I have respect for Norman for at least trying the crush shells instead of rough.  Interesting to come up with a trend that would minimize water, in a very arid region.  However, the course does not work architectural in places, in particular the two contrasting sands did not work well for me.

[BV]

Depends on the definition of best (With all due respect to the former Chief)

You could argue the Great White at Doral, something for everyone and prety good use of a pancake, but I have said that here before.

His PGA West course is frightfully bad.  

[jim__janosik]

It's decomposed granite not crushed shells outside the fairways at PGA West. Sort of like a baseball infield yet coarser. The owners wanted something different since they
already had 4 dye, two Nicklaus, and one Weiskof and one Palmer course so a risk was taken to go way out of the box and have only 60 acres of turf on the whole course. I am curious what you folks think of the no rough concept. Everything is mowed at fairway height except greenand tees.
That was kind of refreshing.  The same owners of PGA West own Doral if that helps explain how the "dirt" rough concept got to be bi-coastal.

I believe the concept was good but poorly executed.

[cary lichtenstein]

Interesting there's been no mention of Doonbeg. Maybe people haven't played it yet, but personally, I loved it.

You got to be kidding. We thought it was a joke, and very dangerous

[Paul Richards]

The Medalist is the only Norman course I can honestly recommend.

However, I'm not even sure how much of its design is due to him ...