Green Speeds at Victoria

[Danny Goss]

I heard Mike Clayton on 3AW tonight explain a pretty difficult situation.  I thought he expressed everybody's feelings very well when he said that he agreed that the decision was correct but unfortunate.
He said that the course was set up at the very edge of its limits and sometimes when that happens it can fall over that edge...which is what happened today.
I felt for Mike and his firm during that interview. You have the support of people who know and understand what is happening.
Colin Phillips from the AGU took the blame for it all which deflects some of the heat. I see the AGU have shortened it to 54 holes now after initially wanting to play 36 on Sunday. Obviously panic stations there!

[Paul Daley]

Heated passion, but cool heads ...

I've seen Melbourne's greens more precarious than what they were today. Far better to strive for the ideal that was nearly acheived today - and fail occasionally - than to "throw the baby out with the bath water" and revert to safe, pleasant, but non-challenging green speeds.

By more regularly insisting upon the unique Melbourne 'burnt toast' look, AGU officials, architects, consultants, superintendents and crew, plus other interested parties will gain the necessary practice - and feel - to better present the course "on the brink" - but have it remain playable. This goal is so tantalising that it is worth pursuing.

What must not happen is a repeat performance of the aftermath of the Royal Melbourne fiascos of 1985 and 1987. Here, an over-reaction and correction took place, and not surprisingly, everyone became too cautious and paralysed. The two key words are vigilance and surveilence. And vigilence is useless without surveilence!

A day is a long time in politics: but two hours is an eternity on the sandbelt!! It was tough going early and yet Andrew Webster shot a great 71. Though a gentle breeze, it did gather force and the sun shone brighter within the space of two hours by mid-morning.

The day's events were heightened by the fact that 6 of Victoria's greens slope considerably from back-to-front. It also highlights the failure of player shotmaking and an overall inability to leave the ball below the pins.  

Weather wise, the day was simply perfect for golf.  

[Chris Kane]

I think that in the end, as Shane said, the AGU is responsible for the course set-up of their own championship.  Whether the offending advice was from Thomson, Clayton or whoever is perhaps irrelevant...the AGU are the ones who chose to proceed.

Thats why I object to people posting anonymously, implying that the schmozzle today can be attributed to an individual who isn't even associated with the AGU.  

I still admire the AGU for at least trying to implement the maintenance meld...there's always a fine line between success and failure when setting up a course for a tournament of this magnitude.  The aim of the superintendant is to get as close to the line as possible, but if the line is crossed (like it was today), the result is disastrous.

I have a feeling that this Open won't be forgotten in a hurry, for all the wrong reasons...such a shame, because now Victoria is being portrayed as a joke in the media, rather than the fantastic golf course it is.  

What are the odds that Moonah Links will have "washing machine" greens this time next year (unless it has already gone bankrupt!)?    

[TEPaul]

It's a shame the first round was cancelled, and a bigger shame that the discussion about the course setup, even on this website, is about who to blame.

I didn't see anything so can't say anything about the greens being over the top.

But if the descriptions given by Peter Pitcock and Shane g are true at least a green or two went over the edge creating a situation which shouldn't happen in stroke play and virtually can't happen for a stroke play tournament to be contested properly.

The "ideal maintenance meld" at least in theory is to me about "firm" conditions to a point that creates a "quandry" in decision making and I feel a necessary degree of green "firmness" is essential for that.

But don't let's confuse green "firmness" with excessive "greenspeed" at the very edge of sanity. The two are not the same thing at all! Green firmness can surely be extremely intense to play without having even downhill putts almost without question roll right off greens.

But the thing that got my attention was the mention of hole #3 (and maybe one or two others) where players putting up to pins had their ball at or even above the pin and the ball came all the way back to them!

Friends and neighbors, that exact situation IS the definition of "unfair" in golf if ever there was one! It may be the only real definition of unfair in golf! It's unfair because what's a player to do at the very best? He's gotten his ball under a pin and how can he do better than that?

In a stroke play tournament if that very thing happens to player(S), the course is virtually unplayable (even if only on one green in a stroke play tournament) and the round should have been cancelled.

I saw that once at a tournament at Pebble Beach (#14) and the tournament was a disaster. Hardly anyone finished that green (10-15 putting) and the guy that won apparently hit a moving ball on purpose, took his penalty and went on. He should have been DQed!

Keep Victoria firm and fast and keep those greens firm too but slow those greens down not to the limit of sanity but enough below it where no uphill putt rolls all the way back to ANY player. Everyone wants to see and have a good test of golf at a National Open but that situation (putts coming back) is not part of a good test at all!

[JohnV]

Tom Paul - well said.

We had a situation at a US Senior Amateur qualifier at Waverly in Portland Or one time where a hole was cut in a bad place.  For the first 10 groups, there was enough dew on the ground that it was playable.  For the remaining groups it became almost impossible to stop the ball around the hole.  Unfortunately the officials didn't hear about it so play went on.  Late in the afternooon when we had a playoff we ended up back on that hole, but by then the grass had grown enough that it was playable again.

The point is that even if a number of the early groups were able to play a hole, by mid-day it probably did become unplayable and play should have been suspended or cancelled.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

Exactly! Once even a single player has passed through a really problematic pin position in stroke play, the pin position should not be altered (although there is some thinking that it may actually be done to a "similar" position--but honestly what would that be in the completely over the top situations described?).

I can tell you right now what P.J. Boatright would have done in a situation like that--he would have cancelled the round inside of a New York second!

[Coincidence?]

Does Tom Meeks have an alibi?

[Pete_Pittock]

A couple of mangled quotes - Rich Beem commented that he never had a round cancelled because of perfect weather. The AGU made the decision to go to 54 holes because they were concerned about the player's safety playing 36 holes in the forecast weather (reverse venturi effect), neglecting to mention the machinations of TV Channel 7 not wanting to go into their prime time, also another pro said he wasn't worried about the incompetence, but the extent of it.
     In the hour of TV before play was called, the conditions were truly unfair for stroke play, exactly as TE Paul said. When a person has taken four strokes from eight meters and is no closer to the hole, the line was crossed. Watering and continuing play would have been equally bad, and probably caused withdrawals.
    

[rpurd]

The 18th at Olympic in 98' didn't cause cancellation.  I am sick of these pros always complaining.....Appleby shot a respectable round.  I could see if the wind was blowing the balls on the greens (have not heard that), so I presume it was because of ball placement (getting above the hole).  This is a national championship........you keep playing.  Augusta has had greens fast and furious.  I've even played Myopia a few times where if you got above the hole.....you were in big trouble (#4 as an example).  These pros were just upset they couldnt shoot a 66 or 65.........this was the same crap that happened at Shell's WWOG at Cherokee Plantation a few yrs back.......where Els and Duval almost walked off the course.  They were watered down and they stayed.  PLay the course.....you shoot 82, you shoot 82.

[Mike_Duffy]

:-/Today (Friday), is another magnificent autumnal day here in Melbourne. Not a hint of wind, clear skies and a forecast top temperature of 24C (mid 70s F). These are the most pleasant conditions in which to play golf.

The farce that was enacted yesterday by the players and the administrators was a disgrace to the game, to the venue. to the AGU and to Australian golf in general.

I wonder what complaints will surface today? There will be some, you can bank on that.

And as for the AGU decision to truncate the tournament to 54 holes, because of adverse conditions forecast for Sunday . . . well I'm aghast.

If I'm not mistaken 36 holes was played on the Monday at this same venue about 25 years ago in a Wills Masters. The 36-hole final day was played in heat up to 36C.

The AGU stated that they were concerned about players safety in heat!!

What a load of absolute bullshit. Come clean Colin Phillips. Channel 7 called the tune didn't they? No impingement into National News and the early evening diet of top-rating crap.

Now let's review the AGU record regarding the nation's most prestigious tournament in recent years and moving forward.

The 2001 venue was The Grand in Queensland. No more need be said about that disgraceful venue. Victoria in 2002. You cancel a day's play because the greens have been decreed unplayable!!!

Next year's venue and beyond. Moonah Links. Why would anyone bother travelling down to the nether regions of the MOrnington Peninsula when they could not even be guaranteed of watching a full day's play.

The Test cricket beckons. If I want to watch farce, I'll tune into the Simpsons.

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

I wonder how much impact Appleby's 62 on Tuesday had on the amount of water that was used between then and Thursday morning.

At some point the AGU needs to have a serious look at the concept of "toughening" the courses up for the Open.  Royal Adelaide was turned into an exercise in hay cutting.  The decision to turn the Par 5 at the Grand last year into a par 4 and then watch almost everyone play from the left rough was almost as funny as going to the Grand in the first place.

The thing that amazes me is that they didn't learn anything from the disaster at Goonawarra in qualifying a couple of weeks ago, when they had to cancel the round because the greens were unplayable.  Matt Cohn was there and can probably add more but it just seems that the same mistakes keep being made.

Brian

[TEPaul]

Goonawarra?

Now that's a name!

Not only does Australia have some wonderful golf courses they've got names for them that blow the States away. Is there a single person on earth who'd prefer Trump National over Goonawarra?

I doubt it!

[D. Kilfara]

The Australian Open telecast - the hour of it that went ahead, plus a few interviews afterwards - was rebroadcast this evening on Sky Sports here in Britain, and I watched most of it. It was very interesting to watch, but I'm pretty sure that the decision to abandon play had to be made, even though Robert Allenby came on afterwards saying that he would have liked to continue playing - "It's the same for everyone," he said. The one putt that I saw which made me really wonder was Aaron Baddeley's on the 13th - from about 40 feet he hit it four feet past the hole, but as it stopped it wobbled backwards and thereafter trickled back to within a foot or so of the hole. For what it's worth, the early leaders in the clubhouse (I think there were two or three of them) were at one-over-par, although had conditions continued to deteriorate it would have taken a terrific round to get anywhere near that.

One thing that had me confused was some discussion that they couldn't water the greens during the round to try and slow them because that would change the conditions of play. I'm sure I've seen greens "syringed" during the US Open and elsewhere after every group has gone through. Is there a formal rule about this?

Anyone know why the tournament couldn't be pushed to Monday to make it 72 holes?

Anyway, assuming that acceptable pin placements can be found (20-footers rolling up to the side of the hole should not turn around and come back to or beyond your feet), and that grass can be made to grow for four days at the very edge of sanity, I'd really like to see a full tournament on a course like this be played in conditions like this. If you're a professional golfer and are playing reasonably well, you should be able to shoot four- or five-over in such conditions; likewise, anyone who knows anything about the game should understand why a tournament in such conditions might be won in a score of ten- or twelve-over. So what's wrong with setting up a course like that, where length is irrelevant and course management absolutely everything? It certainly makes a very pleasant change to what I'm used to watching...

Cheers,
Darren

[D. Kilfara]

Is there a single person on earth who'd prefer Trump National over Goonawarra?

Um, Donald Trump, perhaps?

[TEPaul]

Darren:

Touche! And obviously truer than perhaps.

[Pete_Pittock]

Are you sure it isn't Goonarawwa?

[CHrisB]

Charles Howell was +10 when play was called yesterday, and now is in the lead after a 5-under 65!  He's got to feel like the luckiest guy in the world.

[Richard_Macafee]

While I agree that our pros make an artform out of whingeing at many tournaments, I don't think you can be critical of them this time. When you leave yourself under the hole and then have to putt 4 times from the same spot, the skill has gone out of the contest.

Once they watered the green during play there was only one decision that could be made.

It was a sorry day for Aussie golf and some people have made some terrible decisions. The course was perfect on Monday, and green speeds on Monday should be the speeds for the whole week so that practice conditions equal tournament conditions. By Wednesday the players were still praising the conditions, so something went horribly wrong Wednesday night.

With perfect weather and heaps of time, there is no excuse for not getting a course in a playable condition. Maybe someone just got a bit greedy and pushed it over the edge.

Colin Phillips did the right thing by taking the blame but a few comments afterwards were funny:

Thommo suggesting there is a contest over green speeds on the sandbelt is just plain wrong. He also made sure he mentioned John Sloan in his newspaper article this morning.

Phillips suggesting one of the reasons for not playing 36 holes Sunday was 'player safety' was hilarious. Not enough daylight was equally as funny. He should have just said "TV and sponsors" straight up.

Anyway its a pity because Vic is a great course and it should have been a great week.

Paul.D.,
      
When have you seen sandbelt greens more  precarious than that, I find that a little hard to believe.

[Brian Walshe]

The most interesting comment today came from Charles Howell III who said,

“Even yesterday, as ridiculous as it was, it was great for me to see,” he said.  You don’t see conditions like that in the states. But I want to experience as much as I can.”

[Paul Daley]

Rich: I was thinking specifically about an early 1980's Australian Masters at Huntingdale, when putting from the rear of the 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 13th was too slick to handle.  :oIn those days, the greens were mainly relatively large and flat, and the pros seemed to be accepting of the fact that the act of putting was out of their control. It was also around that time that the dreaded hot northerly seemed to strike once per tournament - sometimes twice.  

[rpurd]

Watched a little of the tourney last night.  Commentators GRILLED the head of aussie golf.  Calling situation an embarassment, etc.  Thought moving to 54 hole tourney was unacceptable.  Last I saw, -4 was leading (Howell was 4 under going to 17).  Looked very fast and firm on the fairways....greens actually looked slow.  Beem was running it into the rough on a few drives I saw.

[Glen_Fergo]

:)Here in OZ I think the fact that it is forecast to in the mid to high 90's on Sunday of the tourney was the main reason for the decisions made.

Players, volunteers etc have commitments on Monday (where to youget enough volunteers on a work day? Although there'd be plenty of people taking sickies ot go and watch the golf).

The weather in Melbourne is notoriously fickle and weather forecasters rarely get it right but idf they did not only would the Open be badly affected by the deteriorating conditions but the members might lose some there greens altogether.

In summary a terrible day for Aussie Golf but a right decision in the end all things considered.

PS The mention of next years Open at the Moonah Links (Peter Thomson course) is interesting there are places there that a shot short of the green can run back 80-90 YDS!!! And Thommo has already said in his talk about the design that he doesn't want collars of rough to stop such things. It will interesting to see what the pros make of it when they see the final set up.

[TEPaul]

Look, in the interest of all and in fairness to all, forget about who's to blame here. What happened will be a smudge for sure, but the thing to take from all this is Victoria GC and most of what I can see coming out of Australia is hitting the mark about 99% when it comes to their architecture and the way they condition it!

Who cares who's the most responsible--the thing to take from this is green firmness is something that can work well in stroke play tournament setup but going into a national Open stoke play tournament with the expected idea to take GREENSPEED to the very edge of SANITY is NOT!

[NAF]

Glen Fergo-

The National Moonah is a Norman design.  The Ocean Course at the National is a Thomson work and the two are dissimilar..trust me..I just played the Moonah and I am unsure if any shot short of the green will come back 80 or 90 yards at all-or anything close.  Balls bound toward the green for the most part there.  Given wind and a downhill putt and Victoria conditions you can see balls go 150 feet off greens (I've only seen it at Sand Hills and down on the Sandbelt, but I don't think you will see what happen at Victoria happen down at Cape Schank.

[Chris Kane]

Noel,

You've been confused by the names.

The course hosting the Open next year is Moonah Links, which is about three minutes drive from the National complex, designed by Thomson Wolveridge and Perrett.  It was built by the AGU for the specific purposes of hosting an Open, and was opened last year.  Its a public course, with the green fee currently at $75.    Most reports on the golf course have been unfavourable (to put it mildly), and there are rumours that the place is on a verge of bankruptcy.

Moonah Links is 6800m (almost 7500yds) from the championships tees.  No guessing what the AGU's response to technology is this time.

At the National, there are the Moonah (Norman/Harrison) and Ocean (TWP) courses, which are not at this stage pencilled in to host professional golf.

The duplication of names is a joke, with both clubs saying they'd sort something out before the courses opened.  They didn't.  So now we have the stupid situation of people clamouring to play the Moonah at the National, believing its the Open course!