[Jordan Wall]

Everyone talks about how the pros always go low.

How they always hit it soooo far.

How architecture is being ruined due to all the legth.

What about a solution??  A solution under 400 yards, nonetheless.  I have drawn out a diagram of a hole that might be used on the PGA (not on this course though...), and how the hole can be changed to make the pros score really high without really being unfair.  It would definitely work and yes, the pros still could[/color] score low but not without risk and thinking.

Here is a picture of a hole, maybe used on a different course for the PGA.  It is a 90-degree dogleg left with 210 yards to the corner, leaving you with about 160 or so yards to the green.  Techinically OB is left and water is right but that doesnt exactly make the hole tough.  Here is the picture.



Now here is the hole as a redesign that would test the pros.

[Jordan Wall]

What this does to the hole first off is it eliminates some trees on the left, allowing for a clear view to the green from the tee box.  About 180 yards out there is an island fairway about the size of a green, 20 yards by 30 yards.  50 yards past thatt, requiring a carry of 270 yards, is a fairway bumping any drive to the green.  If you go that route and hit the ball too far there is a stream located about 4 yards off the right of the green

If a pro were to try driving the green he would either be in deep rough, be in a water hazard so close to the green he would have to re-tee, or just barely make it onto the green.  If he tried for the island fairway it would leave him with a tight wedge shot to a well surrounded green, which slopes all away from him.

Considering pros usually have big egos, they would probably try for the left route.  If not they have an easy par, really hard birdie, and possible bogey.

Could this be a solution to making a 360 yard hole difficult (finally)??

Why hasnt this been done yet??

[JNC Lyon]

A pro would just fly the trouble and onto the green.  270 carry??  Without wind, any player who can't make this carry shouldn't be on the tour.  Did you watch J.B. Holmes last week??  320 to carry the bunker on 18, he flies it 20 yards past it.  The hole you lay out is cake for the long hitter (probably a 3 or 4 iron for JB, two-putt birdie) and miserable for the short hitter like me.  I couldn't get the ball to the edge of the dogleg, and it would be an automatic bogey.  Instead of leveling the playing field, it becomes even more distorted.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Considering pros usually have big egos, they would probably try for the left route.  If not they have an easy par, really hard birdie, and possible bogey.
...

This is a mistake. One place pros really distinguish themselves is evaluating a hole and determining the best way to avoid disaster and still score. You may have been talking about Phil Mickelson, but he is learning slowly.

[James Bennett]

Jordan

well done with your first picture-post (I think).

The problem I have with the dog-leg route (if that is the principal way of play for 98% of golfers) is that everyone will be playing from the same area at the dogleg.  Some with a 4-iron tee-shot, some with a driver.  This area of fairway will get a lot of wear and divots.  

If a forced lay-up is intended (this may not be the idea, if so, please ignore me), why not just build a par-3 and have everyone tee-off from the same place.  There needs to be a reasonable skill element in the teeshot for the par-4 to have value (vs a par-30, IMO).  This reward might be a better view for the second shot of the green, or a blind green from a poor tee-shot, depending on how well executed the positional play is.

However, I am a novice as well at these matters.  Take advice from those who really know.

James B

[Jordan Wall]

The hole would certainly not become more distorted, why would you think that??  The hole itself as it is now is pretty dumb because every player is forced to lay-up, so would adding options really be a bad thing?  Certainly the pros would have trouble with this hole, and even more so with the new options.

See, the green, which is 290 yards away (270 to fairway) slopes away from the player severly, as does the fairway.  If you go a foot over the green from the angle of the tee there is a stream that will eat any ball up going a foot over the putting surface.  Distorted??  I would choose to disagree because the short player would be playing safe, and get his par, where as the longer player fights for his bogey...

Also, the island fairway, which looks appealing to the eye, is not so good either, though it seems better.  See, if you hit the small island then you have a wedge shot that will have limited spin on it due to the green sloping away.  If the player misses the isalnd fairway, he then has to hit that same wedge shot yet from the rough, which is deep!!!  Also, the island will look good and therefore entice the player to go that route.

So is the hole really distorted, or is actually helping the shorter player??

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Any professional hitting a hard draw with a driver (or 3-wood if your surname rhymes with -oods, -ickelson, or -atson) can simply ignore the island fairway and treat the far fairway like a cape hole. I assume you're keeping the trees in play, but then you're really only creating options that are both penal in nature (which is why our discussion about this last night prompted that other thread I started).

I feel you could improve the hole by removing all trees and making a cape-hole both in tee shot and around the green. Let the golfer pick his angle and yardage and set up the green so the more he fights for angle of the tee, the better the angle in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Out of bounds left and water right ....  But, that doesn't make the hole tough ?

[Jordan Wall]

Kyle,

The trees prevent it from being a cape hole.  If you took away the trees then the cape aspect would be weird due to the fact that there would be no fairway to run the ball up the green and they would have to go over ob because without the new part to the hole, there would still be the ob there.  It wouldnt be a great cape hole, trust me.


Pat,

If the hole was redone then the ob would be taken away.

The same could not be said for the lake.

Without the OB wouldnt the hole be made better with new options??

[Scott Cannon]

Doesn't a hole like the 10th at Riviera entice the longer players to go for it and give the 4 iron wedge player just as good or sometimes a better chance for birdie, or have I missed the point completely?

[Jordan Wall]

Just got back from the course.

Here are a couple more pictures I took of the hole.

The hole has little character as is but with new additions like the one above it could become way better, and the pros would have a hard time with it, plus the hole would be more interesting.

On the pictures not the proximity of the stream (just left of the green by the trees in the pics).  This would prevent the ball landing on the green from the tee actually staying on the green.  It would roll off the green and into the hazard.  The green sits nicely, but it would suddenly become lots better with the addition of a new route.

Do you guys still think the pros would eat it up??  Now do you think the hole would be better with the new options??


 From about 10 yards left of where the new fairway extension would be added to the green, in angle with the tee

This shows the humps behind the green, which lead to difficult up and downs as the hills slope away from the green and the the green slopes all away.  Note how close the sticker bushes are to the green, which are red flags and on a hill that leads to the stream, also very close to the green.  That makes for a tough time driving the green

The tee box, and note the proximity to the trees, all of which would be removed for the new plan

The corner of the dogleg as it is today

[Paul Payne]

I like the idea of a cape hole to reel in the long game. I would assume that somebody would have done this before but;

Are there many cape holes that begin with a more subtle bend to give a shorter player more fairway landing room, and then curl more tightly as they go, to minimize the landing available for a long drive?

It seems to be a fairly logical solution however I have honestly not thought through all of the potential pitfalls.

[Tim Gavrich]

Jordan, and everyone else intrigued by this concept--
   In Murrells Inlet, SC, there is Blackmoor GC, a Gary Player design.  The 8th hole is virtually the exact hole that this thread considers, and it's a good hole, in my estimation.

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