Pebble Beach vs. Pacific Dunes (redux)

[Tom Doak]

I know we've done this to death already, but ...

I just got back in the office from ten days away and laid out on my desk is the latest GOLFWEEK, with their new ranking of the Top 40 Resort Golf Courses in America.  Guess which is No. 1?

Sorry, Ran, it's not Pebble Beach!

[THuckaby2]

Whoa... I must admit I was one of the PBGL supporters, postulating that as great as Pacific Dunes is, I didn't see it surpassing Pebble on any ranking... so this is very interesting indeed.

First, congats to you Tom Doak!  No matter what one says about rankings, well... that is just plain very cool.  Surpassing Pebble in anything is one hell of a statement.

I can't find this list and I don't subcsribe to Golfweek.. I'll be interested in how this was all defined.

But hell, it doesn't matter all that much.  Pacific deserves everything it gets.

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I will defend Ran here, because I disagree with that ranking and was surprised when I saw it.

As someone familiar with rankings Tom, do you worry that the early buzz will wear off?  There  is a trend with Old Head, Loch Lomond, Shadow Creek, etc. debuting high and falling, which has been common in recent years.

I loved Pacific Dunes, but I wonder in five years if it will be beating Pebble for the top spot.

[TEPaul]

Now this has to be the first time I've felt a somewhat warm feeling for a magazine's architectural analysis (rankings).

History, fame, tradition and God know's what else aside, in a straight architectural analysis I can see this happening. Who cares if it wears off some and is somewhat temporary in a comparative sense. Somebody is starting to think clearly in real strict architectural analysis (and I suppose comparison)--all of it!

Congratulations TomD!

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm.... TEP - did you see the article and the criteria considered?  I know I congratulated Tom D. as well, and if this is purely based on "architecture", then the congrats are REALLY warranted... but if this is best "resort", it might be the combination of PD and BD winning over Pebble and Spyglass... that's still wonderful and Tom deserves congrats in any case... but I remain interested in exactly the criteria for this ranking.

TH

[Doug Wright]

Congratulations to Mr. Doak. I share the concerns of others--will success spoil Bandon/Pacific Dunes, too much too fast, etc.? One of the things I really liked there was the relaxed, professional service and golf-only atmosphere. Plus I found it to be a great value, a fair price but not cheap. Will the cost $$ increase with the fame?

Perhaps Mr. Keiser will keep a firm hand on the wheel, but I also assume he would like to make a return on his investment. just hope it's a "fair" return and not a money grab.

All The Best,

[TEPaul]

TomH:

I have no idea what the 'criteria' is. I do know though that Pacific Dunes does not have history, tradition and whatever else it is that falls into some of this non-architectural "criteria" some of these magazines tend to use (and use too much, in my opinion). So it must be the architecture of PD!

Maybe the Bandon Dunes operation has the best abolone sandwich the world has ever imagined but I don't know that and I doubt even if they did Golfweek would weigh it heavily if at all (at least I hope not)!

[THuckaby2]

TEP:  "Best resort for golf" would be different than "best golf course at a resort."  See what I'm getting at here?  The latter would indeed mean that architecture was the focus; the former would mean that everything is considered, including all golf courses... and thus even though the hotel and amenities at Bandon will never approach those at Pebble by most measures, I could still see it winning - especially in a Golfweek survey - because as I say, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes combined would win out over Pebble and Spyglass.

Either way it's a significant "victory" for the folks in Bandon, but let's not trumpet this as a victory for the "architecture" of Pacific Dunes over the "architecture" of Pebble just yet.  I want to see what the criteria were for these rankings, as I say.

We both know plenty of golfweek raters, in any case, and their preferences... it surprises me such a rating took THIS
LONG!  

Most likely my questions are meaningless - TD seems to say that PD won "best resort course".  I just wish I had the golfweek issue to answer this!

TH

[Reluctantly Anonymous]

Sorry for the anonymous post, but I'm afraid that if I posted under my own name the focus would shift away from what I have to say.
There is a lot criticism on this site of architects like Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio, centering around their arrogance, in JN's case for designing courses which favor his style of play, and in TF's case for his lack of respect for classic architecture and belief in his own style. Yet Tom Doak constantly checks in to boast about his latest success whether in the States or in NZ or whereever, and we embrace it, we congratulate him on his marriage, and so on. Seriously, an architect starting a topic bragging about his course outranking Pebble Beach? That just makes me cringe. And I LOVE TD, his books, and his courses. But I don't want to see this site turn into www.tomdoak.com, and it is close to doing that. This is a discussion group, not a fan club.
I challenge anyone who wants to respond to focus on what I said instead of attacking it for being anonymous. i just think its something to think about.

[Mitch Hantman]

Tom,

Congratulations are in order.  I do believe that Bandon/Pacific has 36 outstanding holes,
whereas Pebble has perhaps two "ordinary" holes, and other than the first 5 at Spyglass,
the rest of the course if fine and challenging, but unspectacular.  I fully expect to see
other magazines give the duo at Bandon the same accolades.  

Taking this one step further, Tom, what insight can you share with us on who will design
the third course at Bandon?  I understand it will be off the ocean, and into the woods for
the most part.  I'd appreciate any advance info you may wish to share at this time.  If it's
being kept under wraps, I understand.

Mitch

[THuckaby2]

RA - that is indeed a valid concern.  People may try and deny it, but TD is a favorite here.  Your points are all valid.

In response I will just say this:  Mr. Doak particpates on the site, and he's been nice enough to respond to various emails from me, which I do appreciate.  It's just human nature to "favor" someone you "know" and niceties beget niceties.  For me, that's all there is... I'm sure others share this view, whether they voice it or not.

I'm still gonna bust his chops and defend Pebble over Pacific, but I'm also not gonna get on him for posting Pacific's "triumph" here because it is a BIG thing and it's great for him!  I have no problems with this whatsoever.

But this is just me....

TH

[RA]

Tom Huckaby,
thanks for the thoughtful answer; heck, I like him too, I just felt I had to say that.

[THuckaby2]

No hassles RA - as I say, you make valid points.  This is why I also tend to avoid personal attacks on anyone, architects included!  Seems to me it never hurts to say nice things, but the other way around, well.....

TH

[Steve Lang]

RA,

I would concur with your thoughts in general, however in specific terms, I see the appreaciation of TD on this site more due to his open communications and personal committment to being a professional.  

I too have had some emails responded to from TD and I'm no one.  I just happen to have discovered his northern michigan courses by accident near my summer cottage, and play them during each summer vacation I take up there.  I think I'll send Mr Fazio an email or Mr Nicklaus and see if they reply.

In this instance its certainly FACT not brag.  

[Michael Dugger]

I think it is a cheap shot from randomly anonymous...

Here is why...

Tom Doak is not glossing himself for personal gain.  Aside from Jeffrey Brauer and Kelly Blake Moran, Tom is the ONLY architect who comes into this forum and contributes.  Does anyone really think that he is doing this to secure future jobs?  Last time I checked there aren't very many land developers looking for a golf course architect contributing to THIS discussion forum.  

Many of the people who participate in this discussion forum visited Pac Dunes while it was under construction.  Some of the people who come to this site actually know Tom on a personal basis.  To a lot of these people Pac Dunes is a personal success story.  

Tom is not pleading for us to support him, nor to turn this into his personal marketing firm.  We support him because he is good at what he does and we respect him.

Get over it.

[Mitch Hantman]

RA - There is certainly nothing wrong with congratulating Tom on his successes.  
I am happy for him.

[Steve Lapper]

This "upset" in the short-lived tradition of ranking courses is just another example of the effect of positive change and necessary evolution of all things. Pebble has gotten too expensive and too reliant on tradition and history to earn the top perch.

Simply put, Pebble is nothing short of wonderful and has earned its importance, history, tradition, and reputation. But it is also way too pricey with no real choice of reasonably priced golf, food and lodging. PB's holes are sprinkled with a few mediocre ones and any other public course nearby suffers the same fate.

 Bandon/Pac. Dunes has leaped to the top, not 100% on the back of Tom Doak or any other archie. Instead, it is a huge collective victory for Mike Keiser's vision, his partners in construction and operation, David Kidd and Tom Doak. They all should share the credit and bask in the golden glow. I have said to all that know me, a trip to Oregon is a far more attractive proposition than wasting a ton of $$ at Pebble (unless of course access to CPGC can be had!). I wish I could trade the places like a stock arbitrage, I'd have shorted PB/Spy, etc.. and bought BD/PD 1.5 yrs ago and gotten paid bigtime by now. I suspect that trade will continue to work for sometime in the future.

As for the Doak vs. JN/TF, et. al. debate, I agree with the access and interaction bias. It is a natural dynamic. I understand why others looking in might dislike this skew, but don't forget that Doak has done more impressive things of late (admittedly with great properties) than Jack or Fazio. He also doesn't look to fill the business of creating golf's equivalent of amusement parks: Trumps, High Alpine courses, Vegas imitations, etc....

 GCA tends to retain the "purist" style thinkers and that alone will likely DQ JN and TF fans. Just a fact, jack!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom Huckaby,
From the first time I read the article, a week ago, until now I still cannot be sure what they are identifying. The top of the page proclaims "America's Best- Top 40 Resorts. The text begins with " If you are looking for a golf getaway at a premier vacation facility"......and so on. It goes on to say this is GW's "exclusive America's Best list of top-ranked resort courses.
I believe it's purposefully vague.    

RA,
I am not put off by TD's bringing this to the forum. I read this article a week ago and remember thinking that it would probably come here as a topic with some controversy attached. I thought about posting something myself but soon forgot the idea as rankings don't do much for me and I was pretty sure someone else would do it. My biggest surprise was that no one else beat TD to the punch.

[Tim Weiman]

RA:

Tom Doak may be boosting about Pacific Dunes.

Still, I'd rather encourage other architects to join our discussion than discourage someone who actively participates.

Jack Nicklaus has never been a "favorite" here, but when Jim Lipe started participating recently, he was well received. The more we see guys like Jim jump in, the less we have to worry about the site turning into a fan club for anyone, don't you think?

[TEPaul]

I don't buy the knock on Doak because he comes on here and says things about his work.

I think this site is primarily a fan of a particular direction in architecture, anyway, not just particular architects.

But if the likes of Nicklaus, Fazio, Rees Jones and some others came on here I'm completely confident they'd get a warm welcome, certainly personally.

But the fact is some of them think this site is a bunch of "f... dilletantes" and that's a quote.

They can't seem to be seen to deign to post on here and they act like God help them if they ever deigned to actually use their names--might step on somebodies toes or something--probably the same reason "Reluctantly Anonymous" is reluctantly anonymous.

Sure their architecture should get fair treatment for the archtiecture but I don't think they should expect any favors on here because of who they are.

So keep coming on here and saying whatever you want Tom Doak, and the fact that you've always used your name makes it even better.

Again, I'm more than confident that any architect using his real name would be more than welcomed posting on Golfclubatlas to talk about his own work, somebody else, almost anything to do with architecture.

Even if any architect wants to come on here solely to  blatantly praise his own work, by all means come ahead and do it. Most of us on here weren't born yesterday!

[A_Clay_Man]

Whats so wrong with a little horn blowing? I just wish TF and JN would do the same here. I don't think there is anything wrong with an open discussion and transfer of information no matter where it comes from. It sure is better to hear from the horses mouth than posting anonomously with the same post.

Tom H- I would'nt worry too much about Mr. Keiser's ROI. While knowing nothing specific about the Oregon coast courses I do know of a newer course overseas which recoupped its investment in the first 5 months. Talk about gravy.

[Scott_Burroughs]

mdugger,

Lucky for us, Doak, Brauer, and Moran are not the only architects who contribute on this site.  I'll probably miss a name or two, but other architects who have contributed on more than a few occasions include Mike Young, Rick Noyes, Richard Mandell, Brian Phillips, George Williams, Rick Phelps, Jeremy Glenn, Tony Ristola, Jim Lipe (goes by JWL), Mike DeVries, Jeff McDowell, Neal Meagher, Todd Eckenrode, and a few others who prefer to lay low.

[George Pazin]

RA -

I understand what you are trying to say, but your analogy is way off.

Tom Doak has been extremely forthcoming with regard to many aspects of his courses. He has, on more than one occasion, asked for negative criticism of his courses. He has addressed both these criticisms and others. I haven't seen TF, RJ or anyone verbally connected with their organizations come on board to either hype their courses or respond to criticism.

I'll stop now before I drag this thread into another rehashing of the bias threads.

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott;

I didn't realize that Paul Turner has been moonlighting as an architect.    

Two others who have contributed in the past are Gil Hanse and Jim Engh, although it's been some time since I've seen either of them post.  

[GeoffreyChilds]

Good call with the other names Scott. I'll add Geoff Shakleford, Brad Klein and Ron Whitten as folks in the business whose contributions are invaluable. Paul Turner- have you abandoned your day job for golf course architecture?

I too welcome ALL architects who would discuss their craft on this site.  Their insights in writing are among the best educational tools available to us.

So lets offer an open invitation to architects to talk about their projects and all aspects of the business.