[Anthony_Nysse]

Because of the "lovely" weather here in Atlanta, my plans to play the Atlanta Athletic Club were cancelled, so next on the list is Capital City Club-Crabapple. Has anone had a chance to play here? I know that it is a Tom Fazio couse that hosted the 2003 AMEX where Tiger won. It has also hosted the 2005 AJGA Cannon Cup. Anyone have any pics or comments? It is currently rated #17 by GD.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[A.G._Crockett]

I have played it twice.  It is a huge, beautiful piece of property, and the clubhouse is drop dead gorgeous.

If you have a copy of the Confidential Guide, you might read the review of White Columns, a very similar design which is less than 5 miles from the Crabapple course on a comparable site by the same GCA.  

[John_Cullum]

Tom Doak was not too kind to White Columns. I think he got that one wrong. White Columns is pretty good.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Anthony,
Like A.G. said, Crabapple is on a really nice piece of property with holes that are in both meadows and dense trees. While I understand A.G.'s reference, I like the course much more than White Columns, due to the great routing of the front nine and the superior green contouring (comparing both courses). I played it in late winter and it was in excellent shape.
In retrospect, I remember way more of the individual holes than I do on most Fazio courses (I have played about 30). Strategically, however, I thought the course played pretty bland. I don't remember thinking about the different shot options that I prefer in a course.
Hope that helps.

[BCrosby]

A much more interesting course that White Columns. A couple of thoughts:

- the bunkerless 8th is a strong, old school par 4. I love the green and surrounds.
- think of the 10th as a reverse Road Hole (where the carpath is the road; I would like to think it was intentional). Tiger struggled with it all four days, putting one approach in the "road" and the bushes beyond.
- the split fairway 12th is fun, though I don't know why you would ever take the low road
- check out the contouring of the green on the par 3 13th
- the 14th is maybe my favorite hole. Unless it is wet, anything flown to the downhill green will bounce over or to the sides. You gotta hit a bump and run. A great second shot hole
- think of the 15th as an Eden Hole on steroids

Mike Eger interfaced with Fazio on behalf of the club and I think his influence is obvious. A good, fun course. Best practise facility in the world. One of the best clubhouses in the the world.

Cost of facility: $45MM plus. A quiet little low key course it ain't.

Bob  

[Anthony_Nysse]

I'm planning on taking some pics of Crabapple, so if I can get a host, they'll be posted...I'll make sure to get there early enough to hit plenty of balls on that facility-I could hit all day on a good facility

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John Keenan]

Is this the course located in Buckhead?

[Anthony_Nysse]

This is the one located near Alpharetta/Woodstock

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Sean Leary]

I believe that the club does have a city course, however. A few clubs in ATL have this.

[jim_lewis]

Capital City-Crabapple is located in............Crabapple!

[John_Cullum]

The original Capital City Club is located at Brookhaven, about 1 or 2 miles north of Lenox Mall. It still exists, and the Crabapple Course is their new course.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Bob Crosby
Of course you meant David Eger, presently successful senior tour player.

[Carlyle Rood]

Tom Doak was not too kind to White Columns. I think he got that one wrong. White Columns is pretty good.

Really?  Be sure you take his scores relatively.  As I recall, I don't think he necessarily thinks courses with lower "Doak scale" ratings are poor courses.  It may just suggest that you would enjoy courses with comparable ratings too.  Recall that he's discriminating between a lot of courses.

[BCrosby]

Lynn -

Thanks for the correction. It was DAVID Eger who was retained by Captial City to liason with the Fazio group. I believe his involvement paid substantial dividends and the course is much better for it. I wish more clubs would do the same thing.

Bob

[John_Cullum]

Really?  Be sure you take his scores relatively.  As I recall, I don't think he necessarily thinks courses with lower "Doak scale" ratings are poor courses.  It may just suggest that you would enjoy courses with comparable ratings too.  Recall that he's discriminating between a lot of courses.

I'm going more on the words he wrote as opposed to the number he assigned.

[Andy Doyle]

Really?  Be sure you take his scores relatively.  As I recall, I don't think he necessarily thinks courses with lower "Doak scale" ratings are poor courses.  It may just suggest that you would enjoy courses with comparable ratings too.  Recall that he's discriminating between a lot of courses.

I'm going more on the words he wrote as opposed to the number he assigned.

Yes, if I recall correctly at one point he used the adjective "vapid" in describing this course.

Bummed me out - the site of my only ace.

Andy

[John_Cullum]

"Totally devoid of interest"..."absolutely vapid."

How does that rate a Doak 4? Doak describes a 4 as modestly interesting with some distinctive holes or scenic interest. 4 might be about the right score, I would say its more of a 5 given the choices in Atlanta.  

[A.G._Crockett]

"Totally devoid of interest"..."absolutely vapid."

How does that rate a Doak 4? Doak describes a 4 as modestly interesting with some distinctive holes or scenic interest. 4 might be about the right score, I would say its more of a 5 given the choices in Atlanta.  

John,
White Columns in now private, but was never one of the best choices in the area, especially for the dollars it cost when it was daily fee.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with White Columns, and the greens are usually among the best conditioned that you will ever play on.  The complaint that you normally hear around here is that you finish a first round at White Columns and can't remember a single hole, and I think that was Doak's point.  On a very good piece of land, it just isn't a memorable golf course at any point.  There aren't very many holes that you want to immediately go back and play again as soon as you finish.

[Brock Peyer]

I second AG, I have played it once, I am glad that I can cross it off of my list but I am not dying to play it again.  I remember a few of the holes but only one really stuck out in my mind  (the long downhill par three but I can't remember the yardage).  I haven't played Crabapple but hear that it is good.

[John_Cullum]

...given the choices in Atlanta.  

Did you notice this part???

Atlanta golf is pretty damn mediocre. The terrain is just too hard to work with.

[A.G._Crockett]

...given the choices in Atlanta.  

Did you notice this part???

Atlanta golf is pretty damn mediocre. The terrain is just too hard to work with.

John,
I won't go too far out of my way to defend Atlanta golf, but I'll stand by what I said about White Columns, and give some comparisons from the same area.

I'll just mention several daily fees near White Columns (since it started that way) that were and are much better golf courses.  Woodmont (RTJ III), Eagle Watch (Palmer, though condition can be shaky at times) and Crooked Creek (Mike Riley) are excellent courses built on similar terrain.  Cobblestone (Ken Dye) is a little farther away, but still in the same area, and is superb by any measure.  Windermere is now private also, but is a good course by the Love organization on a TERRIBLE piece of ground!  I don't think the piece of ground that White Columns is on is bad at all, and much better than some other courses in the same area; it just isn't a memorable course in any way, EXCEPT the spectacular condition of the greens, which Doak refers to.

Daily fee golf on the north end of Atlanta has always been tough.  Historically, it was limited and expensive, and to an extent this is still true.  It isn't nearly as bad as it once was, and if you go a little farther north to Chestatee, Gold Creek, Birch River, there are some good tracks.  It is hilly terrain in a lot of cases, but Denis Griffiths, Mike Riley, Ken Dye, and others have done good work on that same terrain.  I just don't think White Columns was ever anything special, and I think it should have been much, much better given the land and the budget.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gentleman,
  Had a chance to play here yesterday-I was completyly blown away. It actually appears that Tom Fazio actually spent time on the site and I would guess the presence of David Eder help out in the overall shot options and details. A great big practice facility, this a BIG golf Course-Big greens, many tees, big bunkering, bold elevation changes-One of the best Fazio courses he's done in the 2000's. The bunkering was some of the best modern bunkering I've seen to date. I love how there is not any uniform to the steep slopes, grass fingers and depth. I loved how the bunkering in between #1 and #2 spoiled into eachother along with #16 and #17-Much better look than just mowed rough. I thought the greens shaping was incredible-many pockets, fall off areas,and prounounced ridges. The uniqueness of #12 with the green almost coming to a "V" in the front, the #14 green with its "horseshoe" countour in the front to the 17th green with it's very prounounced ridge running from back right to fron left...just some very good green countouring throughout-No 2 greens were alike. I loved the option holes on #12 and #16-Big par 5's with alternative fairways spliting by very attrative bunkering. This is a tough golf course with fairways some 25 yards in spots. The conditioning was as good as is gets, especially considering that the course was not overseeded. I was very wet, but it was because of a previous days rain-Green were flawless-meaning, very fast (12-13)and no ball marks. I've never seen that because on a course that's 5 years old-A prideful memebership and good maintenance staff.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[A.G._Crockett]

Anthony,
Glad you liked it, and thanks for the explanations as to why.  I find it interesting that you were as impressed by Crabapple as much as you were not by Cuscowilla.  

[Doug Sobieski]

Anthony:

I, too, am surprised about your views about Cuscowilla and Crabapple. My personal thoughts on Crabapple (almost the total opposite of yours!).

- To me, the club would be a fantastic place to entertain clients. They'd be impressed by the clubhouse, practice area, and overall scale of the place. When playing customer golf where everyone shows up 90 minutes ahead to have lunch, hit balls, look around the shop, etc., then after play you head to the grill for a beer, it's VERY good. However, if I had to play it as my home course, I'd find myself getting bored.
- I found the course to be much easier than it looked (isn't this often the knock on Fazio and crew?). I did play it from as far back as possible, and didn't feel like I was overly challenged at any time. Actually, I thought there were a few holes where I could put on a blindfold and not worry about making worse than par. You might think I'd have a higher opinion of a course where I scored so well!!
- I didn't see anything that inclined me to think that the boss spent more time on site than other Fazio courses of recent vintage. There wasn't a whole lot strategically that had me eager to make a return trip any time soon. Cuscowilla, on the other hand, is a place where I'd make a special trip because I find it to be much more strategic.
- I think the average trunk-slammer that get's invited once a year to a private club by his boss is going to LOVE CCC-Crabapple, because he doesn't get that kind of overall aesthetic presentation that often. On the other hand, if you take the same guy to Cuscowilla, he's going to wonder what the big deal is because he wasn't impressed by the practice facilities, enormous clubhouse and huge features.

That's the beauty of CCC though. I think they've hit their target audience of corporate entertainment very well.

I also think that their slate roof on the clubhouse cost more than my house  

All the best,

Doug

[Anthony_Nysse]

Doug,
  I cannot say that I'm one that gets taken back by all the glitz, in fact, I didn't even go into the clubhouse and only hit about 10 range balls. (We were a little late getting there as it's in BFE. ) I enjoyed the magnitude of the track and the diversity from any other Fazio course. I really like the fairness in CCC, where as I thought Cusco was unfair on more than several occasions-I guess that's the difference in courses built for tournaments and courses built for enjoyment. I played East Lake today and loved it because it was so fair and everything was right in front of you...pure golf. They had a big clubhouse, small practice area, but the course was pure golf....I really enjoyed it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

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