Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them

[Mark_Fine]

One idea Forrest and I discussed regarding #17 at The TPC was to show a photoshoped picture of the green with nothing but manicured grass surrounding it.  How exciting would that be on Sunday afternoon at The Players Championship or for that matter for anyone playing a causal round there    

Now if you perched the green up three feet or so and let the edges rolloff to closely mown grass (we consider this a non-formal hazard) that could be interesting but still not as exciting or as scary as with the water.  

It's clearly the six inches between the ears that Pete (or should I say Alice) is going after here.

[Bill_McBride]

I can tell you the hole is much easier from the member tee, 115 yards from the left angle where the slope of the green is directly oriented to the tee.  I've only played the hole once, and that was in a scramble.  Hit PW to 10' behind the hole and rolled in the putt for 2.  Walking around from the tournament tee (still only 132 yards) you could see how much more difficult the shot was from that angle, with the little pot bunker and the slope of the green from right to left putting another element of doubt in the equation.  Add in the usual wind and the hole becomes a potential nightmare during tournament pressure.

Is it really 8500 square feet?  It doesn't look that big, either from the tee or on the green.

[Forrest Richardson]

To me the heart of No. 17 is the enormity of the water compared to the target. At most water holes — indeed, at most island holes — the island is not much smaller than the area of the lake in which it rests. But at Sawgrass the scale is so alarming...this tiny speck of turf, perched high, and in a sea of water. Dye was masterful at creating the sense of shocking scale between the amount of water and the amount of land.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I still haven't read the book. Does that mean I have to stay in my room and can't play?

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting that the bunker on the island isn't discussed much. Is the shot from the bunker intimidating at all for the laymen? I know the tour player has made the bunker shot pretty rote to begin with.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
The green is huge.  We outine the dimensions in the book.  It just doesn't look that big.  I've played the hole quite a few times.  One day is was really blowing and you can't believe how hard it can be to hit.  That green can get reasonably firm.

Kyle,
I don't think that little pot bunker gets too much action.  You could stand there with a small bucket and not hit it.  However, it is one of those bunkers that if you do hit into it during a round, you'd probably be elated as it is better than going in the water.  

The bunker is small so the sand shot itself is confined.  You have to be able to get the ball up quickly to get out.  Typical of many Pete Dye bunkers.

[Doug Siebert]

Tom Doak,

You know, everytime you post that about that 17th and the size of its green I'm amazed, if it was circular that would be a full 104 ft in diameter.  That's frickin' huge!

My home course (an RB Harris design from '54) has a par 3 with two island greens, and the size of both putting areas together probably isn't much more than 8500 sq ft, and certainly even including the surrounding fringe/rough neither green offers a non-water target that large.  We rarely see the kind of wind Sawgrass does, but being in a sort of bowl gives a bit of that Amen Corner swirl to the wind so it can be quite tricky when its coming from the right direction.

I've never understand how that 17th get into the head of a pro as well as it does, even accounting for the pressure they are under.  The only time I'm really knocking my knees at my home course is early in the season.  They love to set the pin on the far green the first few weeks, a 200 yard shot from the tips into a cold north wind to a small green with a rusty swing!  Usually I put my Titleist in my pocket and tee up some random ball I've found, just in case

[peter_p]

    One thing that was not mentioned in the book is the players being sheltered from the wind by the large berm to their left. Much like ANGC's 12th they have to figure it out from the flags and trees.
    I think this is the only listed hazard which is totally penal, every other one can be avoided. And its position in the round makes it the oral for the PhD
   
    My first time at this hole our group had to watch one player in the group ahead hit at least ten in the drink. It was not helpful. I imagined the old 14th at Tualatin which was a similar length hole totally surrounded by bunkers. Figured if I hit that with regularity, I cold hit this.
    The other time I dunked the first and hit the next one in the bunker.

[Ryan Crago]

gentlemen,

first, forrest and mark... great book.

re: 17th at sawgrass... in looking at the photos and seeing it on television for years (haven't been there myself) i've always wondered how much the alignment of the teeing ground compounds many of the thoughts going through the players' mind? (not just the pros...).

in other words, does the fact that the tee box snakes around the edge of the pond effect the player getting square, and probably more importantly, comfortable?   was this a conscious design decision?

[Mark_Fine]

The wind clearly plays a role here.  And the green is not exactly flat.  If you remember that long putt Tiger made; if it didn't hit the hole and could have been wet.  There is some slope (but less than Pete originally wanted).   8500 square feet with nothing around it doesn't look that big when you are standing 130 yards away.  Doug, do your island greens have the water right up against them or is there some rough/bailout area.  What is the total size of each island?
Ryan, thanks for your comments about the book.  Glad you like it.  A hole like this needs ALOT of teeing space.  You can imagine how many golf balls are played to it every day.  I've seen foursomes not leave till every player hit the green.  The angle/orientation of the green from the different teeing areas is more a factor than the tees themselves.

[wsmorrison]

I played the course soon after it opened.  As I recall, the tee shot was well right of the current back tee.  I think the shot was 150+ yards.  No doubt play was really backed up with the tees in that initial location.  I guess over time forward tees were added and member play was moved to 130 yards and then to the present 115 or so.  From where we played the back tees there were really tall trees behind making it very difficult to judge wind speed and direction.  This more than the intimidating nature of the shot was the primary difficulty for me.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne is that in the area of the lone tee you see in the color photo in our book or is it even further right?  I can't imagine it being much farther over or you would have to play over that tree.  

[Tom Huckaby]

I bought the book and I am very glad I did - it is really cool - thanks again to Mark and Forrest for the autographed copy - my kids think I am a star.  

Re 17 TPC Sawgrass - I have a question for those who've played it - Mark and Forrest mention the mental factor - that is, you start thinking about it even before you tee off on 1 - how much does that come into play?  I know if and when I ever play that course, I'll be thinking about it big time... and it might serve to throw off my game elsewhere.  But the rest of the course does keep one's attention, no?  How does it compare to Cypress... where thoughts of 16 have to be consciously played down as one plays the first 15 holes?  I'd guess that's how it works at TPC-S... but I'd love some more insight on this.

TH

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I'm sorry to say, I have no idea since I don't have the book.  Tell me how much I should mail you and I'll do it today.  Then I can answer your question  

[ForkaB]

Huckster

I've never made the field for the TPC , but I have played the course 10-15 times including twice in local tournaments, and once when I came to the 17th tee at one under. I must say that the hole does not at all have the same sort of "You were always on my mind" feel as 16 Cypress.  Also, when you get there the green is BIG! and CLOSE!  You feel like you could almost drop kick a ProV1 on there.  Unless you have completely lost your cojones, it is just an easy 9-iron and then on to the 18th tee......

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:

Cool - I must admit I was thinking along those lines - that is, shit how the hell hard can it be at 130 yards or whatever?  And yes, the green does LOOK pretty big.

BUT... one thing is giving me pause here... you also once called 16 Cypress "no big deal, simple driver to the right side."  

So I would like some other opinions before I settle this in my mind.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
There are many many shots at The TPC that are harder than the short iron you will face at #17.  But it's the fact that you have to hit that shot and you have to hit that green because there is no alternative.  That is what scares you.  Just think about how many of the Pros hit balls in the water there and that should answer your question for you    

There are thousands of balls hit in the water by the rest of us and probably many of them might have had a better chance of staying dry if they had been "drop kicked" as Rich puts it.  The psychological aspect of hazards plays a huge role on this hole.  We dedicated a whole chapter to this and maybe if Rich eventually gets his book   he'll read that chapter and have a different perspective.  

The hole does not compare to #16 at Cypress.  #16 at Cypress is out of reach for many golfers so there is less "fear".  At #17 at the TPC, almost every golfer has the capability to reach the green even without hitting a career shot.  Knowing that is what creates the nerves and tension and why soooo many golfers miss.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark:

I just finished the chapter on the psychological role of hazards - that's what prompted my question here.

Because I can see Rich's point - the green is big, and it is only 130 yards... But I also see great pros find the water there in the TPC... and hear horror stories from regular joes dumping ball after ball into the drink.

At 16 CPC, it's understandable because it's a damn hard golf shot to begin with.  And then yes, good call, for so many it's tantamout to impossible anyway, so the pressure is less - one can do only good, not bad - if it goes in the ocean so what?

At 17 TPC-S, well it just can't be the difficulty of the shot -as you say. Damn near all golfers would EXPECT to get teh ball on that green.  Well said, and well written in the book.

Might another part of this - for one-time visitors anyway -  be the fame of the golf hole?  That is, this course is pretty famous, well-photographed, seen on TV.  But 17 has to be up there with 16 CPC in terms of photo presence, then add in the TV, web-site coverage, etc... and well... It's kinda like playing CPC - first question from the boys back home will be how did you do on X?  (X being the famous golf hole).  Thus the self-induced pressure... those the ball finds the water....

TH

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You passed chapter 5    Well done!

[Bill_McBride]

The other thing about #17 is I think it affects your play on #16 too, which is the first time you see it.  You are getting ready to hit your second shot, or maybe your approach, and you see the damn thing floating out there in the water and your first thought is, oh shit.

So while you're thinking that, you are mucking up #16 too!  

Great hole for head cases!  

[Matt MacIver]

I was thinking about #17 all the way 'round the front 9, in part because I don't particularily think the front is very impressive.  I thought about it on-and-off during the back,  when not playing favorites 11, 12 and 16.  Culminated the experience with two in the drink....after a birdie on 16 followed by a bogey on the closer.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark do you identify when Rough was first defined on a golf course? I.E. not an area of wild grass but an area distinct from the fairway.

As I see it greens were the first area to get special attention (even if they were in practice very sandy areas from the teeing up).  On most courses animals were allowed to graze everywhere else but towards the end of the 19th Century horse drawn mowers appeared.  Choosing which areas to use them on was an early form of GCA.  which courses were the first to use them?

[Mark_Fine]

Tony,
You are right about the term "Himalayas".  The name is used at several golf courses.  St. Enodoc uses that name and sometimes the bunker on the 4th hole at Royal St. George's is referred to as the same.

If you look on page 37, we found reference to "rough" in a 1902 Golf Illustrated article.  I'm not sure if it is the first reference but it is an early use of the name.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony Muldoon,

Would you please delete your posts referencing the Himalayas, we'll get to them a little later.

Let's discuss one hazard at a time, with the 17th at Sawgrass being the focus of this discussion.

thanks.

Tom Doak,

Would the impact on the players mind be diminished if the tee at # 17 has elevated such that the golfer would have a clear view of the green, it's perameters, and the surrounding water ?

Isn't part of the intimidation factor the unknown, the golfers inability to see everything, especially the boundaries of the features, thus increasing the uncertainty with respect to the shot he faces ?

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I'm sure Tom will chime in but the height of the tee does play a role at #17.  Architects like to perch tees up because it gives the golfer a sense of power and a better vantage point to scope out what lies ahead.  Pete did not elevate the tee on #17 and for good reason.  That big green doesn't look as big as you might think when you are stare out at it on an angle from the same elevation.  You just can't tell how deep it is and that plays on your mind.  It is one of the hole's defenses.  As you know, it is often little things that separate good from great.
Mark