Redan Pick 'em

[Kyle Harris]

Why not build a Redan hole that offers tee locations that can make it a "reverse" Redan or a "normal" Redan?

As such (not one of my best renderings, admittedly and not necessarily to scale):

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

While you can flip flop the approach, you can't alter the tilt, and that's a key to a Redan, but, I like your thinking and your drawing isn't bad either.

[ForkaB]

Kyle

Why not put a spine in the middle of the green and allow for it to be played 4-ways?  Redan, Reverse Redan, Reverse Flip-Flopped Redan, Unreversed Flip-Flopped Redan?

PS--I think your diagram looks like Dan King eating a canteloupe.

[TEPaul]

Interesting iteration. I'd put tees on the left and some on the right and ditch that tee that looks like Desmond Muirhead's #4 at Stone Harbor. # 4 Stone Harbor is the ugliest looking tee I've ever seen (matter of fact you can walk it down the left all the way to the green I believe. The green is really good though.

Hey, Kyle, do you also like those old golf clubs they made once that were about 8 clubs in one? All you had to do is click it back and forth to adjust the loft.  

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Perhaps I didn't render it well, but the tee can extend to the point where the angles would be correct - or near it.

Rich,

To me, that would be a bit too much for one hole with tee placement options.

Tom,

The tee boxes can be broken up at the correct spots for the angles - maybe even more amorphous in shape as well.

Maybe I'll just split them up like 11 at Rolling Green, and the put a dogwood tree in the middle.  

[Steve Curry]

Kyle,

With most I've seen the orientation wouldn't lend itself to your concept.



Cheers,
Steve

[Hunt]

CBM and Raynor have that concept at St. Louis #16.

It's one of Wayne Morrison's favorite holes.

[JESII]

Kyle,

I cannot see how the Redan concept could really hold true from both sides of an axis to a single target. I thought the two primary ingredients to the Redan were the bunker protecting the inside corner of the green and the cant of the green towards that bunker and also away from the tee (in the normal iteration - front right corner to back left corner). It would seem impossible to keep those characteristice if the playing direction were to change as drastically as your diagram.

[John_Cullum]

There is no sich thing as a reverse redan. There could be a redan for left handers, but the redan concept does not work for a cut shot.

[Kyle Harris]

Do you guys see the two tees on either end of the tee box? It may not show up on the rendering too well.

Both bunkers are below the green.... and the green falls off on all sides except toward the tee.

I could prove this through geometry if you'd like.

John,

Apart from the semantics of the Reverse Redan, how does the Redan concept not work the other way? It's about strategy and execution, not benefitting one specific shot.

I take the concept as "fooling" the golfer into shooting for the flag, when the correct play is away from the hole using the slope to feed the ball to the hole. An angular bunker fronting the green and "shoulder" of terrain on the one end of the green to kick the ball toward the hole and a green that falls away from the golfer at an oblique angle from the tee are my requirements for a Redan.

From CB Macdonald:

"Take a narrow tableland and tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side approach it diagonally and you have a Redan."

From Geoff Shackelford:

"In most cases, the Redan presents an angled green that slopes slightly away from the player, with a bunker in front of the green and a nice bit of helping contour on the approach designed to give the golfer options in attacking the hole. The player who shoots straight for the flagstick had better hit a high, precise shot. The less bold player can stay away from the fronting greenside bunker and run his shot into the green, using the contour to help kick the ball onto the surface."

The only mention of an actual direction is in CB Mac's definition - surely you'll agree it works just as well in the other direction, though.

[Doug Sobieski]

PS--I think your diagram looks like Dan King eating a canteloupe.

THAT is a nominee for funniest post of the year. When I went back and looked at the drawing, I almost spit out my lunch  

[Kyle Harris]

PS--I think your diagram looks like Dan King eating a canteloupe.

THAT is a nominee for funniest post of the year. When I went back and looked at the drawing, I almost spit out my lunch  

Flattering, consider it would be the closest I've ever come to drawing something that looks remotely like a person.

[Jay Flemma]

Kyle, you've hit on something I nlike very much that I picked up from MIke strantz.  Strantz liked to extend tee box at 180 angles on per threes...one set tested distance control, the other accuracy.

My sketch was much wilder...I designed a bone shaped green with tee boxes extending in a spiral pattern around the green from 90yards out to 230 yards out.

Problem...in order to have tees directly on the other side of the green from the original tees, you'd be taking up about 350-400 yards for the entire hole...enough for a par-4.

Better have lots of land!

Nice stuff, Kyle.  Du-duhn, du-duhn.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

Again, since you can't alter the slope of the green, you can't construct a reverse redan merely by moving the tee.

John Cullum,

Not true.

A high cut is a prefered shot into a redan when the hole is located far left and toward the front edge of the green.

[Steve Curry]

Kyle,

Here is another reason why I don't think it wouldn't work.

[Scott_Burroughs]

PS--I think your diagram looks like Dan King eating a canteloupe.

THAT is a nominee for funniest post of the year. When I went back and looked at the drawing, I almost spit out my lunch  

Same here, almost spit out my lunch, too!

[John_Cullum]

Pat

I understand that a high cut would work at other hole locations, but the only hole locations that Kyle is concerning himself with is the back corner locations.

In the four or so years I have been participating on this website, I have never once seen any reference to any hole location other than the back left corner when discussing a redan hole.

A high cut will work on most any approach shot, if you can pull it off.

[Dan King]

Personally I don't see it. Maybe it's like one of those boats you are suppose to see if you look at the pic just right.



Dan King

They (melons) never do me any harm when they are very good, when I eat them while very hungry and before the meat, as the doctors order.
 --Henri IV of France (1589-1610)

[Mike Benham]

PS--I think your diagram looks like Dan King eating a canteloupe.

I was thinking more along the lines of Mr. Potato(e) Head ...

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Here is another reason why I don't think it wouldn't work.

For the record, I did say this wasn't to scale.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Again, since you can't alter the slope of the green, you can't construct a reverse redan merely by moving the tee.

How would a reverse redan slope?

From the right tee the slope of the green would go front left to back right. Am I missing something?

[Steve Curry]

Kyle,

Regardless of the scale I think you would need a hefty distance from one side of you tee to the other to achieve the desirable angle and distance?

Steve

[Kyle Harris]

Steve,

You do have a legitimate point there. I'd think a practical application of this idea would have to eliminate the middle portion of the tee and probably replace that with the hole right before - having the tee boxes to either side of the green - but there would be a small walk to either.

[TEPaul]

One of the things that I never see mentioned much at all about redans or what I'd consider to be the two best redans in the States (NGLA's and Piping's) is their redan bunker is just massive and really high. I'll never forget how intimidating that was for me and all my friends when I was little. I don't care who you are if you're ball gets near the face of either of those bunkers you have your work cut out for you to just get your ball up that high. It's like the bunker to the right of Maidstone's 9th---it's just really tough for anyone to get their ball that high if you're at all close to it.

I didn't really pay that much attention to how high the redan bunker was at North Berwick. Is it as high as NGLA's or Piping Rock's?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

Again, since you can't alter the slope of the green, you can't construct a reverse redan merely by moving the tee.

How would a reverse redan slope?

From the right tee the slope of the green would go front left to back right. Am I missing something?

According to your diagram it would go from front left to back left, unless I'm missing something.[/color]