[Brain Dunkleman]

"The amount of liquor I drank last night would have killed a small- to medium-sized Asian family."

[TEPaul]

Brain Dunkelman:

Where did that quote come from? Whoever said it or whatever it refers to, I love it! It's absolutely perfect in political INCORRECTNESS for this day and age!

Wayne and I were at Shinnecock yesterday and as we stood behind #16 tee one of the members we were with said that shot of that hole and the clubhouse has been taken way too many times!

He actually mentioned that a better shot of that clubhouse was from the other side because no one takes that one much!

I thought maybe a shot of the kitchen door would be appropriate but then I remembered that was Sanford White, not William Flynn, and some irrate husband shot Sanford, while Flynn was a loving husband and father!

My choice for a gorgeous shot of Flynn architecture would be of  #14 looking at it from the upstairs window of the clubhouse diningroom.

Looking right down that hole and it's natural valley to the green beautifully "saddled in" at the end of it is remarkably beautiful and very significant in an architectural context since it is a Flynn original and the best use of a wonderful natural landform "as is" imaginable with a few bunkers cut in beautifully and just a bit of architectural work done at the green-end! This hole is one of the best examples on earth of melding together "naturally" the man-made "lines" of architecture with the "lines" of nature!!

Think about it! If you wanted to take a series of great architectural photos and extremely varied ones, you could stand behind each of these tees and photograph the holes and you'd be hard pressed to find holes this interesting and architecturally varied!

Shinnecock's #9 (18 ), 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16!

But what do you all think of my idea of the kitchen door of the clubhouse, despite the fact it's Sanford White and has nothing to do with William Flynn?

At least we could count on more people calling and asking what the signifcance of the photo is! And don't worry--I'll think of something!

[Craig_Rokke]

TEPaul-
If the cover photo for the Flynn book had to come from Southeastern, PA, which scene would you choose?

[Vokey]

Isn't that quote from a David Feherty article?

[wsmorrison]

Craig,

For me, it might be a choice of 2 Philly area holes, both short par 4s.  #1 at Philly Country from behind the bunkers on the left and #12 from the left fairway approaching the green.  In fact, from the middle of the 15th fairway at Rolling Green from 140 yds would be a great view as well.

The view up to the old 18th green at Manufacturers is great.  Lehigh has some awesome views, especially #2 from landing area and all the par 3s.  Lancaster, is it #4 that appears in Doak's gourmet choice, that's awesome...but I would be further left in the fairway for that shot.  

Though I am in absolute agreement with Tom that from the second floor lounge, the view of #14 is a sight to behold and would make a great book cover to tempt the passersby in a bookstore.

What do you think, Craig?  Mark Fine?  Mike Cirba?  

[Mike_Cirba]

The one that really hit me recently was coming over the hill on 16 at Philly CC.  

With the tree clearing that took place between the 11th and 16th greens, the closeness of the two greens and their shared bunkering schemes is once again breathtaking.  

Or, 18 at Huntingdon Valley is major league impressive, as well.

How about where it all started, more or less, at Merion?  Well...perhaps we should wait a few years there.  

[TEPaul]

I guess this means nobody likes my idea of a photo of the kitchen door at Shinnecock!

Oh well, I never had any taste anyway!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I thought the kitchen door idea could be used for the fold-out, poster-size centerfold.  

[SPDB1]

i still think you should do the 8th on the Primrose. If you can get a better (higher) perspective, that would include some, or all of the greensite,  this is a good angle (sans crowd, of course).

[Mike_Cirba]

This one ain't so bad.  

[SPDB1]

mike - aren't the design similarities between those two particular holes pretty striking?

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB1;

Yep, elevated green at the top of a natural knoll...use of sideslope, bunkers defending the weak shot.

Not many others used natural slopes with such aplomb and grace.  

[TEPaul]

Those two holes are going to be severely criticized by all the modern agers because "the entire hole is not right in front of you!" and you can't see the bottom of the putting surface!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

All the more reason to select it!  

[Jeremiah_Daly]

how about #2, 3, 12, 16, or 17 at Kittansett
they are all great and beautiful holes
is that too touchy a subject?
what role will Kittansett have in your book..
good luck

[TEPaul]

Jeremiah:

We've been sort of wondering what role the book might have on Kittanset!

But my feeling was now that we know who the present historian of the club might be I thought maybe we should go back up there with all Flynn's design plans for Kittanset  (course plans and individual hole drawings) and just ask him to TELL US how he thinks Fredrick Hood told Flynn to do all that!

[Eric Pevoto]

Add the 10th at Lancaster to the list of great Flynn holes with the green expertly situated at the top of a knoll.

A shot of the 18th at Lancaster ain't so bad either.  Very restrained.

As for doors, why not the screen door to the locker room at Kittansett?

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Just try telling John Mazza the 18th at Lancaster is very restrained! Go ahead, I dare you!

[TEPaul]

It's fun and interesting to imagine what the best cover photo would be for a Flynn book! There are so many wonderful looking holes out there he did.

But I think, all in all, architecturally, #14 Shinnecock might be the one, in my opinion, if the photo can really catch the whole length of it well!

The reason I say that is that hole pretty much represents Shinnecock--it's a hole that is undeniably very strong and it's also such a good use of natural landform untampered with! If it were possible to get a photo of #14 with a bit of the lower lying part of the course in the photo on the left it could show the interesting transition of the topogrophy of Shinnecock well!

The man-made architecture of #14 is very minimal really and completely commonsensical and strategic. And the green-end is the perfect combination of man-made lines blending perfectly into the natural lines of the site down at the green-end--very much creating a beautiful "saddle"!

The hole is actually all right in front of you (now that they've thankfully removed the trees on the hillside on the right) and so it's a perfect combination of the old and the new! A hole that spans the ages very well! (Shinnecock, BTW, has an excellent multi year green chairman, and a couple of really good course historians, all who are very calm and logical and truly understand that course, it's history and tradition!!).

Flynn's design iterations to get to the final product of Shinnecock (the course was about 99% built "as to" his plans, by the way), shows some interesting bunker schemes that were not used! One little scheme on #14 was a set of two bunkers across the fairway about 130 yards out from the green! That must have been an idea for a lesser level of player to deal with!

But the truly interesting bunker scheme that was not used was an enormous mound and bunker scheme across the entire width of #16 that looks to have been 80-90 yards long!

This to me was, without question, a Pine Valley or Tillinghast type arrangement that clearly shows that architectural influence on William Flynn!

Another thing he used a lot but often was not built so much that way (or more likely has just been changed through the decades) is his constant use of the "segregated" or "segmented" fairway scheme!

That to me is without question the "Pine Valley influence" on Flynn and as such is a real interest! It also must have played very interesting, particularly in the wind but it's something that would fluster weaker players today which is probably the reason those schemes are now very minimized or gone!

When Flynn "iterated" to the final product he did it using not schemes for 1-18 but always two sets of 1-9s and the real interest to me was the "orange" nine that used #14 as a #1 with a series of other holes that were not built! At that time the land of 10-13 had not even been purchased!

The final iteration was actually done with the nines reversed but apparently they were quickly flipped to what they are today! Of course that explains why #18 is down the hill below #9, something I always thought was sort of odd (until the progression of how the course came to be the way it is became clearer!).

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Surely, one of the covers has to feature Tom Paul typing away furiously at 3AM with his GCA T-shirt visible from underneath his bathrobe.......

[TEPaul]

We'll put that photo not on the back dust cover but inside the back dust cover! If anyone finds it then they will get a prize for really reading the book! In honor of your post I'm going into my wardrobe wing and changing into my GCA teeshirt!

[grampa (Guest)]

TEPaul

I to would like to know what involvement Flynn had at Kittansett and why there is some degree of controversy over design credits. I understand that you have hole by hole diagrams of the design but how are you sure that they are the orginal layouts. Could they be as-built plans or final working drawings to be used for maintenance purposes? If so could you please give us more info on your findings at Kittansett and the involvement or lack of by Hood and Flynn?

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

wsmorrison,

I am probably out of line here but I just wanted to suggest that the book focus more on biography, analysis, etc and not so much on big flashy pictures.  In other words I do not think we need another coffee table book.  I will pay anything for a good book, lord knows I have about $15,000 invested in them or more, but Bahto's book listed at $80, which I bought at an online discount, Klein's Ross book has unneccesary photos like the Pinehurst logo, it just seems like filler.  I looked at my art books and none had a list price on the cover flaps, so I may be way out of line, maybe all those color photos push the price way up.  But, Darwin's British Isles has nice, small to medium size watercolors, really no need for big color picture spreads.  A biography on N.C. Wyeth has a modest section showing his work among other personal pictures.  "Rembrandt's Eyes" has nice glossy pictures but it is not a huge coffee table book with full spread photos.  Maybe golf writers have to do this to market to a mass audience, but it seems the coffee table books are long on pictures and short on (substance) biographical information particularly how their personal lives influenced their work and work their personal lives and others lives.  Some want pretty pictures even though most of the people on GCA have seen these courses live, I want in depth biography, I want to know what made the man tick, not big photos of Cory Who? leaping in the air.  Really, I mean if we want to know about William Flynn, why do we need to see Cory Pavin leaping in the air?  I want to see William Flynn leaping in the air when he hit on what he wanted the hole to be.  

[eaglepower]

I know I'll catch grief but why not driver on the front, wedge on the back?

[wsmorrison]

KBM,

When you express thoughtful ideas in the way you consistantly do, there's no way to view them as out of line.  In fact, speaking for Tom and I, we welcome people's view of what they'd like to see in a book on the courses of William Flynn.  This may just be  a kind of marketing research, but it may also prove invaluable in determining the final product.  

I too do not wish to produce a coffee table book with more fluff than substance.  Yet, the pictures can be used to emphasize design trends and innovations (both in design and construction) creating a visual representation that may not be as effective if just left to words, even those by that famous wordsmith Tom Paul.

It is one thing to describe the 14th at Shinnecock, but to be able to visualize it (most readers will have not nor may ever see that hole in person) is far better, especially when used to inform and educate.

Yet, it is important to determine who the target audience of such a book is.  I think that serious students of golf course architecture, Flynn club members, and general enthusiasts will make up the core readership.  A book that is mostly photographs may appeal to wives and girlfriends gift giving and solve the last minute Christmas or father's day problems but that is not our intention.  I think a book that provides an in depth architectural analysis of all his course work and a comparison with other architects of his era and the influence on the architects of today is of paramount importance to our vision for the project.  We will include as much as possible on who Flynn was outside of his career although there is not much info to go on--perhaps a relatively short chapter.  We very much would like to get a better understanding of his agronomy work, but information is scarce.  Likewise, Flynn was an early and influencial green keeper, but not much is known about that, we hope the Merion archives will help define his early work there.

It is important to have a cover that represents the man and his work and a photo on the front that does so will be key to any publisher and integral to sales.  There is nothing wrong with that!  Remember, here we are talking about cover photos.  The wealth of original drawings in conjunction with aerials and ground photos will be used for some fluff, but mostly to underscore substanative ideas presented in the book.  

Flynn designed beautiful courses we should share these images in an appropriate context.  To appreciate the varied styles of designs and terrains that Flynn worked and the strength of his overall body of work (maybe second to none) is to understand the man's genius.  How do you express the man's incomparable ability as a router of courses if you do not visually present it to the reader?

We will not let serious students and practitioners of golf course architecture such as yourself down.  This will be a study of the man and his entire body of work in golf.  The text will be serious stuff but the visuals will be appropriate in amount and use.

Regards,
Wayne

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