Bad caddie = bad experience?

[Matt MacIver]

It isn't just the UK - I think the use of caddies is only prevalent at old school courses in the US…



Many of the private big-money courses (post 1990~?) and that are currently being built in the SE have / will have caddy programs, and I think they will be competing to find good caddies, and those that have a development- type bent like Evans is a nice idea but don’t count on any actionable advice on the course. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Every so often a GCA thread comes up that reminds me just how different our game is here in the UK. Over the years I have played a reasonable amount (about 60) of the UK 'Top 100' courses and never, ever, have I enjoyed the services of a professional caddie: the venues where they would routinely be offered were and are relatively few. Years ago I spoke at a Blackheath dinner and was offered a caddy from the junior section for golf the next morning, but that is it. My hunch remains that most employers of the caddies offered at e.g St Andrews or Prestwick of Royal County Down or Muirfield will not be from the UK.


Not sure why this might be, although expense is an obvious factor, but I guess habit comes into it too. Widespread caddying seems to have disappeared in the UK because of labour shortages during WW2 and never really re-emerged: I note that for the first post-war meeting of the Senior Golfers Society in 1945 members were 'encouraged to bring their own caddies', in itself a reflection of changing times.

Richard, I live on the west side of the Atlantic and was extremely happy that I had a caddie at the Old Course and most other GB&I courses. I would have little idea where to hit my tee shot at TOC or County Down. I suspect that is why many Americans take caddies.

[Sven Nilsen]

I’d rather have a bad caddie experience than a bad doctor or lawyer experience.

[Sean_A]

I’d rather have a bad caddie experience than a bad doctor or lawyer experience.

Huh? I’d rather not have any of these bad experiences.

Ciao

[Michael Morandi]

My bad caddie  experiences are mostly at so called elite clubs where the caddies act like they are the members and display a certain arrogance to  the guest. You know your host is a jerk when they let the caddie get away with it.

[Brian Finn]

Based on all of the comments on this thread, I have been EXTREMELY lucky with my caddie experiences over the years. I can only think of a couple of examples where I had a truly terrible caddie, and even in those cases, I sure did not let it ruin my round. 

[Peter Sayegh]

My bad caddie  experiences are mostly at so called elite clubs where the caddies act like they are the members and display a certain arrogance to  the guest. You know your host is a jerk when they let the caddie get away with it.

I hope this post is only a joke.

[Michael Morandi]

Sadly, it is not a joke.

[Peter Sayegh]

Michael,
The intent of my post apparently didn't resonate with you.
I've never been hosted (nor would I ever ask) anywhere, much less "at so called elite clubs."

My bad caddie  experiences are mostly at so called elite clubs where the caddies act like they are the members and display a certain arrogance to  the guest. You know your host is a jerk when they let the caddie get away with it.

I always thought golf "hosts" were people who extended invitations to players, who could not normally play their course, because of their non-obligatory largesse.

Thinking a HOST "is a jerk" for whatever reason is out of bounds.

I hope no one in the future makes the mistake of hosting you.

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,
The intent of my post apparently didn't resonate with you.
I've never been hosted (nor would I ever ask) anywhere, much less "at so called elite clubs."

My bad caddie  experiences are mostly at so called elite clubs where the caddies act like they are the members and display a certain arrogance to  the guest. You know your host is a jerk when they let the caddie get away with it.

I always thought golf "hosts" were people who extended invitations to players, who could not normally play their course, because of their non-obligatory largesse.

Thinking a HOST "is a jerk" for whatever reason is out of bounds.

I hope no one in the future makes the mistake of hosting you.

Peter,

I don't understand the "unconditional" aspect as it relates to "whatever the reason".

If your host berates you for no reason in front of others, that would clearly put him in the Jerk category, as well as a bunch of other scenarios I can think of. In this case, Michael just added one more to the list:  failing to address bad caddy behavior.

[Peter Sayegh]

Kalen,

Thinking a host is a jerk in any situation or for whatever reason seems in poor taste to me.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Matt - please define living wage to the exact $ and please make it location specific. I have about 100 more for you.

I'm really not here to discuss economics. It's a complicated question, worthy of a complicated answer, but this is not the venue for that discussion, and most caddies are probably making well above that if they're getting two loops per day... what I'm concerned about is the independent contractors that show up before sunrise, and then leave at noon because they haven't gone out once.

I'm perfectly fine with the system we have now with regard to wages, my point is about expecting professionalism. When many caddies have no idea whether they'll get paid that day, I don't know if I'd expect too much professionalism, I'd expect the job to be treated like being an uber driver, where people pick it up between other gigs. This is fair enough, but you're going to get plenty of bad apples, because the system is not set up to create new people dedicating their lives to the job. There are fine folks who love the game, and caddie because of it, and they'll probably be the first ones out in the morning and the first ones out at noon, but that creates a zero-sum environment, where the marginal caddie, by definition, might go home empty handed. We should care about the marginal caddie if we want professionalism in caddie services.

I won't comment on the rest of your post because,despite having never employed a caddie in your life, you clearly stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... but what?

Feel free to make fun of me all you like, but if you're going to dismiss the concept of population risk to sun exposure at a young age, I suggest you have a chat with a dermatologist. I'm not saying every individual caddie will serious negative health effects, I'm saying that if we build a system of youth caddie programs, we know a percentage of them will experience negative health effects. 3% of fair skinned folks will have melanoma in their lifetime, when caught early the survival rate is high, but it is still non-negligible risk especially as the risks dramatically increase when the damage happens at a younger age.

“We used to say 50% of skin damage happened by your 20’s. Now it’s more like 25%,” says Susan Chon, M.D., professor in MD Anderson’s department of Dermatology. “That’s because people continue to be active and outdoors more throughout their life.”
--

If you can help your kids avoid sunburn, you also reduce their risk of skin cancer. One or more blistering sunburns as a child can double the lifetime risk of the most serious skin cancer, melanoma.

MD Anderson Cancer Center

Matt


Do you still wear masks on airplanes?

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'm not going to come up with some clever comeback, because I don't want to push this conversation more off the topic of caddies. I appreciate your apparent position on youth caddie programs. I think young folk should certainly spend a healthy amount of time in the sun. I just also know there are non-trivial health risks that come with sun exposure at a young age, even if those risks probably won't show up for 50 years.

[jeffwarne]

Matt,
I don't think anyone is disputing the potential damage that sun can do, particular the effects of undue exposure at a young age.


But rather than some well intended sun police gatekeeper denying them an entry point to golf, an opportunity to mingle with and connect with some of the most successful and influential people in their community, their chance to have their college paid for(Evans Program) and the opportunity to earn real money in a safe, mostly wholesome environment etc. etc...
(To say nothing of getting him outside, getting exercise and AWAY from Social media)


Why not just spend some time educating them on proper sun care....?
I mean if a kid can learn all the elements of caddying, reading greens, care of the course, ettiquette, psychology, getting along with people, dealing with grown up bosses, etc. etc.


Don't you think he could figure out how to apply sunscreen and put on a hat?


You might save him from the exposure to sun while caddying, and free him up to what...go to the beach?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,
I don't think anyone is disputing the potential damage that sun can do, particular the effects of undue exposure at a young age.


But rather than some well intended sun police gatekeeper denying them an entry point to golf, an opportunity to mingle with and connect with some of the most successful and influential people in their community, their chance to have their college paid for(Evans Program) and the opportunity to earn real money in a safe, mostly wholesome environment etc. etc...
(To say nothing of getting him outside, getting exercise and AWAY from Social media)


Why not just spend some time educating them on proper sun care....?
I mean if a kid can learn all the elements of caddying, reading greens, care of the course, ettiquette, psychology, getting along with people, dealing with grown up bosses, etc. etc.


Don't you think he could figure out how to apply sunscreen and put on a hat?


You might save him from the exposure to sun while caddying, and free him up to what...go to the beach?

I fear we are going in circles as I've already address many of these concerns a couple pages back and a couple weeks ago. I completely understand your position, and on a case-by-case basis, I think young folks caddying can be a fine thing. My point is about institutionalizing and normalizing a potentially risky activity, especially when we know youth behaviors don't match risk mitigation.

This is a classic case of economic externalities, where the risk of damage done is not included in the cost of the service.

If the caddie masters in youth programs take it upon themselves to make sure to kid goes out there in fresh physical sunscreen before every loop (every nine holes on slow days), with appropriate clothing, and ideally with sunglasses, every day regardless of whether they want to or not, then, yea, that caddie program would be totally fine by me. I'm just deeply skeptical that that is realistic in practice.

If the incentives are, in fact, to give the kids a brighter future, than I'd hope every person involved with a youth program focuses on these long-term risks. When I then see photos, even from the philanthropic Evans program, all showing caddies with minimal sun protection, I'm dubious that it's taken seriously. I hope I'm wrong.

[Anthony Butler]

I had a terrible caddie the first time I played Winged Foot, it did not affect my experience there in the least.  Of course, I figured out early on (the 2nd green) that he has no clue and should disregard anything he said the rest of the day!

That's unusual and unfortunate ---- I';ve had some of the best caddy experiences of my life at Winged Foot. One gave me such good reads I holed over 150ft of putts in a round earning my member $1200 in a Nassau bet.. on top of that he came up with the term 'Pele' to describe Donald Trump as he crossed in front of the 12th tee as we were about to tee off.

"Hold up..." he shouted as I drew my club back... "...it's Pele!"

As I looked down the fairway I saw Trump and his entourage walking onto the fairway about 100yds out.

"Looks awfully like Donald Trump. Why are you calling him Pele?" I asked

"Because there's no-one better with his feet." said my caddy

To think I was one thinned tee shot away from saving millions of people all this grief...

[Steve Wilson]

"To think I was one thinned tee shot away from saving millions of people all this grief..."
[/size][/color]
[/size]So, Anthony, are you telling me that Joe Biden was standing between you and Trump.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]

[jeffwarne]

Matt,
I don't think anyone is disputing the potential damage that sun can do, particular the effects of undue exposure at a young age.


But rather than some well intended sun police gatekeeper denying them an entry point to golf, an opportunity to mingle with and connect with some of the most successful and influential people in their community, their chance to have their college paid for(Evans Program) and the opportunity to earn real money in a safe, mostly wholesome environment etc. etc...
(To say nothing of getting him outside, getting exercise and AWAY from Social media)


Why not just spend some time educating them on proper sun care....?
I mean if a kid can learn all the elements of caddying, reading greens, care of the course, ettiquette, psychology, getting along with people, dealing with grown up bosses, etc. etc.


Don't you think he could figure out how to apply sunscreen and put on a hat?


You might save him from the exposure to sun while caddying, and free him up to what...go to the beach?

This is a classic case of economic externalities, where the risk of damage done is not included in the cost of the service.

If the caddie masters in youth programs take it upon themselves to make sure to kid goes out there in fresh physical sunscreen before every loop (every nine holes on slow days), with appropriate clothing, and ideally with sunglasses, every day regardless of whether they want to or not, then, yea, that caddie program would be totally fine by me. I'm just deeply skeptical that that is realistic in practice.

You are 100% right that the scenario you lay out is unrealistic in practice, but I'm a big fan of initial proper sun education, a reasonable amount of follow up and then personal responsibility(in this case don't the parents, as well as the teenager have some responsibility?)
Should the Caddie manager not give him any time off either for fear he will go to the beach unprotected?


And most kids start smoking and drinking in high school or college.
Should they not attend either of those?


What about hiking, fishing, birdwatching or hunting?
Lyme's disease, and now Lone Star tick disease is now incredibly common in the northeast.
Should all outdoor activity cease?

[Anthony Butler]

"To think I was one thinned tee shot away from saving millions of people all this grief..."

So, Anthony, are you telling me that Joe Biden was standing between you and Trump.

Joe Biden would never walk across a fairway when someone else had the right of way... but the fact a Trump supporter doesn't know anything about golf etiquette doesn't surprise me in the least.. 

[Anthony Butler]

Lyme's disease, and now Lone Star tick disease is now incredibly common in the northeast.
Should all outdoor activity cease?

Jeff - your caddies at the Bridge seemed very well informed about the risks of Lyme disease. Every time we went into the bushes to look for a ball they warned us to check for ticks afterwards. One of them even picked two deer ticks off me. (Thankfully wore a white shirt which made them easier to spot.)

You need to introduce some coyotes into the ecosystem to keep the deer population down, They are everywhere on Eastern LI. There were more deer than golfers on the course when I visited Maidstone the previous day.

[V. Kmetz]

Jesus, these threads in the 17 years I'm on the board...just another f'n Trojan Clydesdale to voice grievance...


for those of current mien who are thinking they're having their day spoiled by unworthy, intrusive demi-vagrants at calamitous rates, I only offer that it used to be much worse:

• caddies that committed open holdup crimes in the Fall to become a guest of the state for the winter
• caddies that strangled an elderly doctor member, carjacking him after he picked them up hitching from the club.
• caddies that thieved the bags, the clubs, the equipment... (some of these were the clean cut, aspirant "'yoots" of fond fiction)
• caddies that vandalized the course with cars, chemicals and shovels...(some of these were the clean cut, aspirant "'yoots" of fond fiction)
• caddies that threw their players' matches for some wagering or other reason, actually fucking their lies and giving mis-information so they would lose...
• caddies kicking balls into the water to prove a point

Most of that social chaos is gone these days, and of course, even these fringy experiences are balanced by more benign corruptions, which are of course themselves balanced by the rich relationships that are often formed and experiences enhanced by a caddie experience... I guess I'm saying that the dynamic is different things for different places and if you're a consumer or invited guest, isn't it your burden of grace to make the best of it? I make less than 50k a year; I've caddied or been a caddie-master for 42 years and I know most every course in the area.  Though I certainly don't need him i'm not resenting the $100 I pay for my cart putter to the kid who does nothing but break my hybrid shaft by riding on the back of the cart between shots...why?  Because  that decision was that club's, I'm not there to rock their boat, as I hope they wouldn't be when I'm the caddie-master or the caddie doing that thing at another club.


In answer to another question: Yes, I have received pay/tip before the round started...only on a handful of occasions from outside players...but as a habit with two long time saints of mine.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Matt,
I don't think anyone is disputing the potential damage that sun can do, particular the effects of undue exposure at a young age.


But rather than some well intended sun police gatekeeper denying them an entry point to golf, an opportunity to mingle with and connect with some of the most successful and influential people in their community, their chance to have their college paid for(Evans Program) and the opportunity to earn real money in a safe, mostly wholesome environment etc. etc...
(To say nothing of getting him outside, getting exercise and AWAY from Social media)


Why not just spend some time educating them on proper sun care....?
I mean if a kid can learn all the elements of caddying, reading greens, care of the course, ettiquette, psychology, getting along with people, dealing with grown up bosses, etc. etc.


Don't you think he could figure out how to apply sunscreen and put on a hat?


You might save him from the exposure to sun while caddying, and free him up to what...go to the beach?

I fear we are going in circles as I've already address many of these concerns a couple pages back and a couple weeks ago. I completely understand your position, and on a case-by-case basis, I think young folks caddying can be a fine thing. My point is about institutionalizing and normalizing a potentially risky activity, especially when we know youth behaviors don't match risk mitigation.

This is a classic case of economic externalities, where the risk of damage done is not included in the cost of the service.

If the caddie masters in youth programs take it upon themselves to make sure to kid goes out there in fresh physical sunscreen before every loop (every nine holes on slow days), with appropriate clothing, and ideally with sunglasses, every day regardless of whether they want to or not, then, yea, that caddie program would be totally fine by me. I'm just deeply skeptical that that is realistic in practice.

If the incentives are, in fact, to give the kids a brighter future, than I'd hope every person involved with a youth program focuses on these long-term risks. When I then see photos, even from the philanthropic Evans program, all showing caddies with minimal sun protection, I'm dubious that it's taken seriously. I hope I'm wrong.

Where is John Kavanaugh these days?

[Matt Schoolfield]

You are 100% right that the scenario you lay out is unrealistic in practice, but I'm a big fan of initial proper sun education, a reasonable amount of follow up and then personal responsibility

I think I understand you now. I get wary when we both agree that it's not practical or likely for youth caddie program to exist where the caddies follow the appropriate level of risk mitigation. I'm a consequentialist, so that leads me to think that having the youth caddie program is probably not a good idea regardless of who is to blame for the damage done, simply because we agree that the damage will probably end up happening.

You seem to be presenting a deontological view, that the duty of protecting themselves is on the caddies themselves, and is not the duty of the caddie program.

Fair enough, these are different frameworks, neither of which can be considered "correct" outside of the frameworks themselves. Different perspectives lead to different results. I can disagree with you, while still understanding that your line of reasoning is perfectly valid given your framework.

[Tim Martin]

Matt,
I don't think anyone is disputing the potential damage that sun can do, particular the effects of undue exposure at a young age.


But rather than some well intended sun police gatekeeper denying them an entry point to golf, an opportunity to mingle with and connect with some of the most successful and influential people in their community, their chance to have their college paid for(Evans Program) and the opportunity to earn real money in a safe, mostly wholesome environment etc. etc...
(To say nothing of getting him outside, getting exercise and AWAY from Social media)


Why not just spend some time educating them on proper sun care....?
I mean if a kid can learn all the elements of caddying, reading greens, care of the course, ettiquette, psychology, getting along with people, dealing with grown up bosses, etc. etc.


Don't you think he could figure out how to apply sunscreen and put on a hat?


You might save him from the exposure to sun while caddying, and free him up to what...go to the beach?

I fear we are going in circles as I've already address many of these concerns a couple pages back and a couple weeks ago. I completely understand your position, and on a case-by-case basis, I think young folks caddying can be a fine thing. My point is about institutionalizing and normalizing a potentially risky activity, especially when we know youth behaviors don't match risk mitigation.

This is a classic case of economic externalities, where the risk of damage done is not included in the cost of the service.

If the caddie masters in youth programs take it upon themselves to make sure to kid goes out there in fresh physical sunscreen before every loop (every nine holes on slow days), with appropriate clothing, and ideally with sunglasses, every day regardless of whether they want to or not, then, yea, that caddie program would be totally fine by me. I'm just deeply skeptical that that is realistic in practice.

If the incentives are, in fact, to give the kids a brighter future, than I'd hope every person involved with a youth program focuses on these long-term risks. When I then see photos, even from the philanthropic Evans program, all showing caddies with minimal sun protection, I'm dubious that it's taken seriously. I hope I'm wrong.

Where is John Kavanaugh these days?

 

[Brian Finn]

You are 100% right that the scenario you lay out is unrealistic in practice, but I'm a big fan of initial proper sun education, a reasonable amount of follow up and then personal responsibility

I think I understand you now. I get wary when we both agree that it's not practical or likely for youth caddie program to exist where the caddies follow the appropriate level of risk mitigation. I'm a consequentialist, so that leads me to think that having the youth caddie program is probably not a good idea regardless of who is to blame for the damage done, simply because we agree that the damage will probably end up happen.

You seem to be presenting a deontological view, that the duty of protecting themselves is on the caddies themselves, then it's not the duty of the caddie program.

Fair enough, these are different frameworks, neither of which can be considered "correct" outside of the frameworks themselves. Different perspectives lead to different results. I can disagree with you, while still understanding that your line of reasoning is perfectly valid given your framework.

Where’s Will Hunting when we need him?