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Kyle Harris

"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« on: January 26, 2006, 08:42:59 AM »
In leafing through "The Maidstone Club" by David Goddard (thank you to Mike Cirba for loaning the book to me), I was struck by the prevalence of what appeared to be "chalk pit" style bunkers in front of some tees on the older layout of the club.

This strikes me as something that could be effectively imitated on a dunesland or even heathland setting.

While I wouldn't want the feature to be used in front of every tee (or any of the forward tees) I think it could be effectively integrated into a tee complex to come into play for the back tees.

The idea of having a partially blind tee shot over a close bunker is appealing to me.

Here's a rendering of my concept and the integration with a more forward tee.


Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2006, 09:39:27 AM »
With a hole the concept can become somewhat strategic. In this case the ideal approach from the fairway is partially blind from the back tee.

The natural "feel" off the back tee would be to bail out right. However, the forward tee is afforded a full view of the strategy of the hole.


Jordan Wall

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2006, 09:53:44 AM »
Kyle, how high would the lip of the bunker be...it would have to be pretty high to make the tee shot partially blind?!?

However, I do think it is a good idea.  Actually I love the concept, and I love bunkers on a course anyways.  It would throw many golfers off, and maybe this could be a solution to making courses tougher.  The only problem I see with it is that many of today's players do not like or prefer blind shots.  I dont know how many members would really enjoy having big bunkers in front of the tee boxes.  All that being said, I would thoroughly like to see 'chalk piy' bunkers used more and I think it would add an interesting feature to each hole it was used on.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2006, 10:03:13 AM »
With a hole the concept can become somewhat strategic. In this case the ideal approach from the fairway is partially blind from the back tee.

The natural "feel" off the back tee would be to bail out right. However, the forward tee is afforded a full view of the strategy of the hole.



Talk about designing holes to suit your game!   :) ;)
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2006, 10:04:18 AM »
Please, my snipe pull hook would catch the chalk pit lip...  :P

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2006, 11:20:02 AM »
Kyle, how high would the lip of the bunker be...it would have to be pretty high to make the tee shot partially blind?!?

However, I do think it is a good idea.  Actually I love the concept, and I love bunkers on a course anyways.  It would throw many golfers off, and maybe this could be a solution to making courses tougher.  The only problem I see with it is that many of today's players do not like or prefer blind shots.  I dont know how many members would really enjoy having big bunkers in front of the tee boxes.  All that being said, I would thoroughly like to see 'chalk piy' bunkers used more and I think it would add an interesting feature to each hole it was used on.

No higher than 8-10 feet.

The members can get rid of it after awhile if they like - their prerogative.  ;D

Will just make some work for a restoration architect in 70 years.  :P

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2006, 03:02:51 PM »
Kyle, why is it called a 'chalk pit' bunker?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2006, 03:11:40 PM »
Andy,

I believe there is a hole somewhere in England (I want to say the Southwest) that has a rather high and large sand dune in front of the tee named the "Chalk Pit." The dune's grass is stripped bare along the line of play - probably from golfers hitting into it.

I think there's a picture of it in one of the Tillinghast books, lemme dig.

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2006, 03:24:32 PM »
Don't ask how I confused the two, but I actually saw the picture in Tom MacWood's A&C Essay. It's the 4th hole at Royal Eastbourne.



I read way too many golf architecture books... they're all blending together.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 03:24:56 PM by Kyle Harris »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2006, 08:38:59 PM »
Kyle,
The Chalk Pit  (a seen in this image) was a hazard that was located on Royal Eastbourne in the South Country of England's green and pleasant land. It was a blind par, one-shotter to a punch bowl green which in the yard behind the green, featured a temple-like structure that was supposedly built during Roman times.


Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2006, 08:41:03 PM »
That's all in the past tense...

What happened?

Jason McNamara

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2006, 01:01:04 AM »
Kyle,
The Chalk Pit  (a seen in this image) was a hazard that was located on Royal Eastbourne in the South Country of England's green and pleasant land.

An ELP thread-jack?   :)

Jason

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2006, 04:40:50 AM »
Jason,
Exactly! (Glad you picked that up!)

From my understanding, the hole, nor the course exist anymore in its previous form. If you get a chance, look at British Golf Links and you can see for yourself that what once existed there was pretty quirky. I have tried to see if this feature, this "Chalk Pit" still exists, but have yet to find out if even the area exists., let alone the golf hole! The hazard itself served the 6th & 11th holes, which #11 was given the name, Paradise due to the temple-like cript that set just off of the back of the green. Darwin talks about the course and the hazard in Golf Courses of the British Isles.

I think Tom Doak mentioned once that it didn't exist anymore, or that it was long gone.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2006, 04:59:52 AM »
www.UK-GolfGuide.com is a useful site for finding current courses and they have links to the clubs website.  It's down as I write but that's unusual.

Let's make GCA grate again!

ForkaB

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2006, 05:53:44 AM »
Tommy/Jason

"Green and pleasant land" was a William Blake thread-jack.  ELP just did a cover version of a song written and performed by others many times and many years before them.  Bringing this thread back to golf one can view "Chariots of Fire" and it's use of "Jerusalem" in the context of the opening scene which takes one around the Pilmour Links..... :)

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2006, 06:05:58 AM »
Jerusalem Boogie to you guys perhaps...

but to me, it meant that Supper was ready.

TEPaul

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2006, 06:25:10 AM »
Kyle:

There is something you should know about the concept you recommend---eg the use of a feature like a "chalk pit" in front of a back tee to create some blindness on perhaps part of the landing area. And that is that the issue of blindness in golf and architecture had a total transformation in acceptance somewhere around the end of the 19th century.

I don't think anyone really knows why this happened. There is no question that in golf before the 20th century the occasional "blind" shot was actually admired---they called it "prized" in golf and architecture. (The reason they felt it was "prized" is interesting to know).

Then just about at the beginning of the "Golden Age" blindness in golf and architecture became unacceptable for some reason, even vilified and including by some of the best architects in the world.

The irony is that even if most all of them recommended blindness not be used in architecture (particularly blind putting surfaces) so many of them used some form of blindness anyway. They may not have dedicatedly created man-made blindness but they certainly created holes that had some degree of blindness, perhaps if only because of topographical realities that couldn't be avoided or altered.

Not all went along with the transformation to lack of acceptance of blindness, however. Max Behr waxed eloquent on the inherent benefits of blindness in golf----eg the beauty of lack of instant gratification during which the imagination could soar to contemplate the glories of what might be  ;).

It has continued to evolve to the present day where the idea that "everything should be right in front of you" seems to have become "prized" in golf architecture.

NGLA is very much admired on here and that's interesting too because we know that a number of the holes there are all or part models or concept models of very old holes from Europe and there is a good deal of blindness involved.

On the first nine holes at NGLA a full seven of them have blindness of some type.  ;)

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2006, 07:43:34 AM »
Tom,

If I didn't know any better, you were trying to make me mainstream.  ;D

I was thinking of letting go of all pretention and just erecting seven foot brick walls in front of every tee box...

Think Scott would go for that?

Speaking of HVCC, two holes there especially work topographic blindness into the equation: 4 and 8. Coincidentally, both require the golfer to be further right than expected.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2006, 07:46:10 AM »
I really like this concept, and in general love some blind shots.  I do like having some delayed gratification as TE Paul puts it.  I wonder if I can tolerate blind shots because I am not a low handicap golfer and have learned to accept some inconsistencies in my game.  Blind shots are fun..... Bring on the "Chalk Pit"!  

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2006, 09:34:21 AM »
Kyle,
The goal you seem to have is a subtle hiding of a portion of the landing area for the back tee, no?
But the picture you provided would appear to be much more of a totally blind shot for all.  I am not sure I see the connection you are making?
Also, up PA way, Water Gap had a drive a bit like that, though the hill was not as impressive, in either size or dunes-iness, and it was not a par 3. Maybe hole 4 or so?  
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Kyle Harris

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2006, 09:38:16 AM »
Andy,

You're right, it's supposed to be subtle, and not nearly as "in your face" as the actual Chalk Pit hole.

It was a motivation and adaption on my part.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2006, 10:47:15 AM »
Kyle:

There is something you should know about the concept you recommend---eg the use of a feature like a "chalk pit" in front of a back tee to create some blindness on perhaps part of the landing area. And that is that the issue of blindness in golf and architecture had a total transformation in acceptance somewhere around the end of the 19th century.

I don't think anyone really knows why this happened. There is no question that in golf before the 20th century the occasional "blind" shot was actually admired---they called it "prized" in golf and architecture. (The reason they felt it was "prized" is interesting to know).

Then just about at the beginning of the "Golden Age" blindness in golf and architecture became unacceptable for some reason, even vilified and including by some of the best architects in the world.

The irony is that even if most all of them recommended blindness not be used in architecture (particularly blind putting surfaces) so many of them used some form of blindness anyway. They may not have dedicatedly created man-made blindness but they certainly created holes that had some degree of blindness, perhaps if only because of topographical realities that couldn't be avoided or altered.

Not all went along with the transformation to lack of acceptance of blindness, however. Max Behr waxed eloquent on the inherent benefits of blindness in golf----eg the beauty of lack of instant gratification during which the imagination could soar to contemplate the glories of what might be  ;).

It has continued to evolve to the present day where the idea that "everything should be right in front of you" seems to have become "prized" in golf architecture.

NGLA is very much admired on here and that's interesting too because we know that a number of the holes there are all or part models or concept models of very old holes from Europe and there is a good deal of blindness involved.

On the first nine holes at NGLA a full seven of them have blindness of some type.  ;)

Hey Tom, stop calling us "Europeans"! I think you'd have a hard time convincing Old Tom, Mackenzie et al that they were European
 ;)


I do agree though, today's architects generally don't have the luxury of using the blind shot as an added dimention.  Which is why it's so thrilling on a new hole like the 9th (Lower) at Pacific Dunes or the 4th and 6th at Bandon Trails.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 10:48:02 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2006, 10:51:21 AM »
Hey Tom, stop calling us "Europeans"! I think you'd have a hard time convincing Old Tom, Mackenzie et al that they were European
 ;)


Paul

Haven't you read "Europe's Gift: Golf" by CB Macdonald?  If not, shame on you!

,,,,or, come to think of it.....

"The Spirit of St. Cloud", Mackenzie
"Boules Never Failed Me", DJ Ross
"Golf Links of the Weimar Republic", B Darwin
"Experience Royal Vaduz", RF Goodale
etc.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 10:56:02 AM by Rich Goodale »

TEPaul

Re:"Chalk Pit" Bunkers
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2006, 03:35:30 PM »
Sorry guys, is that sort of like calling Americans, Puerto Ricans, or perhaps Puerto Ricans, Americans?  ;)