[Sean_A]

I noticed from playing two GCA related events that the games in Kent moved quicker than in North Carolina.  Even a betterball at Deal in crap weather was completed in under 4 hours.  Littlestone moved very well.

Granted, Mid Pines wasn't too bad, I think it was just about 4 hours, maybe a bit more.  We certainly didn't have time for a sit down lunch.  Pine Needles I think was closer to 4.5 hours.  The Road was over 5 hours I think.  Perhaps I lost track of time.  I know we stood about a lot.  

Somebody was mentioning that once a certain time frame becomes acceptable (I think 4.5 hours is probably acceptable at many US courses), you can't cut the time back.  In the UK 4 hours is just about acceptable, but I think 3.5 is more the norm.  

Is the disparity in time down to cultural differences?  If so, what specific differences in culture could account for the difference?  If it isn't down to culture, what are some other reasons?

Ciao

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

It is cultural without a doubt.  Americans are wedded to stroke play and damn well finish every hole no matter what.  We also tend to emulate pros more.  There is no doubt that we play the game slower.  But mainly, we also tend to play courses that take longer, due to more hills and far longer green to tee hikes.  Of course there are exceptions to that, but that is a very safe rule.  I defy the fastest Scot to walk THE RANCH and play it under 4.5 hours.  One more thing:  our courses tend to be a lot more crowded.  Let to our own devices with no one in front of us, most Americans CAN play quickly.

Those are the reasons WHY that I see.  Are there really any others?

TH

[Jason Topp]

I think the largest influences on pace of play have nothing to do with the players themselves:

1.  The design of the course (how much time do you spend looking for balls)

2.  The design of the course (how much of a walk is there between green and tee - or are carts restricted to paths)

3.  How crowded the course is.

One group I play with takes 4-1/2 hours at a nearby public course, even without waiting.  We take 3-1/2 hours at my private course which is good on points one, two and three.

I have played some with people from the UK and have not found them any quicker than people I play with in the US - although if people are too slow I generally do not play with them.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason:  I'd make a comment about great minds, but I just patted myself on the back on another thread and it has me pretty freaked out.

Of course I concur with your reasons 1-3, as that's damn near exactly what I stated.

 

I do however thing that the average Scot does play quicker than the average American, because they don't tend to care about playing out every hole, and they do tend to have quicker routines.  But of course there are exceptions all over the place.  Rich Goodale remains American, as much as that gets forgottten.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  You've inspired a new test.  If a Scot can't play a course walking in less than 4 1/2 hours, it is "Nae Golf".

[Jordan Wall]

I dont know if this is true, but I was playing with some guy I didnt know the other day and he said when he played in Scotland/Ireland (portmarnock I think and one other) the club made their foursomes play alternate shot, only two balls, just to keep time down.  Can you imagine doing that in the US

[Paul Payne]

This is a topic near and dear to my heart. My playing partner and I play almost every weekend during the summer. We walk EVERY round. No matter the course, if there is nobody ahead of us we will finish in about 3.5 hours. The only way we can accomplish this however is with very early tee times.

I read a study in physics and logistics once that concluded that the reason traffic jams occur on freeways is because of drivers not because of volume. In other words, there was no physical reason why bumper to bumper traffic could still not be flying along at 65 mph. It was however all of the little braking adjustments by every driver that compiled to create a traffic jam.

With that in mind I do wonder why golfers cannot find a way to move along at a steady pace in spite of the fact that the course is full. Given that a golf course still has more breathing room and margin for error than a rush hour freeway, it doesn't seem that much to ask. I do see golfers all the time who dawdle endlessly over shots and putts. I just don't get it.

Don't get me wrong I am not an anti-social golfer, I just hate standing in the mid-day sun waiting for the green to clear EVERY hole.

I'd like to see the USGA institute stroke penalties based on TIME. OK.... silly me.... I'm done venting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:  You've inspired a new test.  If a Scot can't play a course walking in less than 4 1/2 hours, it is "Nae Golf".

You may have read my previous thoughts about THE RANCH.  That is nae golf if there is any nae in this world.

 

[Dan King]

IMHO, the USGA deserved a big share of the blame. They convinced American golfers that regardless if you are playing medal or match play, every single box on the scorecard should have a number on it. Even if you are playing a match, and your opponent has already conceeded the hole, it doesn't matter, you need a number. If you don't have a number, what will you put into the computer at the end of the round?

My experience with Scottish golf is usually very different. It is the rare Scottish golfer who even brings a scorecard with them out onto the course. Ask an American how they played and they will respond with a number. Ask a Scot how they did and they will tell you if they won or lost their match.

Sure, if they have some sort of career round, they will be able to tell you after the round what they shot. But generally they understand the difference between casual and serious play. American golfers are clueless and I generally blame it on the hungry computer in every proshop.

Dan King

Of this diversion the Scots are so fond, that, when the weather will permit, you may see a multitude of all ranks, from the senator of justice to the lowest tradesman, mingled together, in their shirts, and following the balls with utmost eagerness.
 --Thomas Smollett, 1771

[ForkaB]

Sean

To answer the question--Yes.

Part of it is the old "sport" vs. "game" question. I've been sceptical of this distinction in the past, but now believe that there IS a difference between treating a round of golf as an outing (sport) vs. a field of combat (game).  The British and Irish (GBI) tend to favor the former, while Americans tend to favor the latter.  This is particulalry true in "friendly" games.  Part of the real problem is that the GBI players understand the difference between the two as their golf is roughly equally split between them--competitive games (medals) once or twice a week and freindly walks in the park (sports) the rest of the time.  In the USA, all games and all shots are considered competitive, whether it be due to USGA handicapping rules or to the fact that regardless of your score you can always save face and/or money by sinking that triple pressed putt on the 18th.

Golf is slower in competitive rounds in GBI, but not that much slower.  In most of the 36-hole events, you are only given 4:30 between your the tee-off times for your first and second rounds.  If you play too slow you don't get properly fed and watered between rounds.  Great incentive!

There is another cultural thing which is not mentioned.  GBI players value the apres golf MUCH more than US golfers, IMHO.  In GBI you get around the course in 3.5 hours and then sit and drink and talk for another 1.5 hours.  In the US you get around in 4.5-5 hours and then disperse after a brief drink and chat (if lucky).  It all gets down to where and when do you socialize?  In the US it is mostly on the course, between shots and waiting for fairways and greens to clear.  In GBI it is mostly in the pub.  I know which I prefer.

Dan

It's TOBIAS Smollett in your quote above.

Otherwise, fine post.

[Eric Franzen]

IMHO, the USGA deserved a big share of the blame. They convinced American golfers that regardless if you are playing medal or match play, every single box on the scorecard should have a number on it. Even if you are playing a match, and your opponent has already conceeded the hole, it doesn't matter, you need a number. If you don't have a number, what will you put into the computer at the end of the round?

Same thing here in Sweden. Everyone is counting strokes like they are keeping score for the final round of the Masters.

4:30 for 18 holes is widely accepted as decent pace of play over here. That plays a big part in why I always loved to play in the UK. Compared to Sweden a whole different attitude to the game is practised, which I feel more comfortable with... hit the ball, walk and have a few laughs and hit again.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Yes, the biggest reason is cultural.

In Finland the play used to be much less stressful and quicker in 70's and 80's.  Now the play has become more serious and slower.  

The reason for this is that the way we play is copied from our everyday lives.  People lived their lives more relaxed and less competitive way.  Now it seems that because of more competition in work has been copied also in our leasure time.  This has caused players to compete with ridiculous attitude in every club competition.  The rounds in competitions are usually 5 hour rounds and sometimes nearly 6 hours!    20 years ago it did not take more than 4 hours.

And it isn't just golf that is getting too serious.  The same thing can be seen in many other hobbies where you compete with others.  People take themselves too seriously on their leasure time.

Another reason for slow play is TV.  Every hacker is copying the pro routines especially on greens.  It is so frustrating to watch players do their "routines" around the green and see that they don't have any idea what they are doing there.  On many rounds I have had hard times trying to resist the urge to tell the player to stop that rediculous routine.  The worse the player is the less he can benefit by the routines.  I don't oppose the routines but they should be quick and effective otherwise they are just waste of time.

The slow play in competitions is the biggest reason I have lost all interest in taking part in them.  20 years ago I played nearly all competitive rounds in our club but in last 5 years I have played less than 10 rounds.

Jari

[Eric Franzen]

And it isn't just golf that is getting too serious.  The same thing can be seen in many other hobbies where you compete with others.  People take themselves too seriously on their leasure time.

Interesting point. Growing up in the 70/80's we just grabbed a ball and walked down to a pad of grass and played soccer until the sun went down. Sometimes you joined a junior team for a season or two and played matches and participated  in organized training.

Today most of the five, six and seven year old kids get their first glimpses of the game when they enroll in soccer school - which may be conducted in a playful way but still might rob the kids of some the spontaneous fun of just messing around with a couple friends. In a broader sense I'll guess you can apply this on many aspects of life and society in the 21st century.

[Sean Walsh]

In my experience it would seem that Australia (unsuprisingly) follows the GB&I cultural example.  

This is even more true for rounds, competitive or otherwise, I have played in Country Victoria compared to playing in Melbourne.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:  you make a great point about the socializing aspects.  But isn't that kind of a chicken-egg thing?

That is, most golfers here and there have a finite window of time allowed for the golf "outing."  Say it's 5-6 hours.

Here in the US, it's expected that the round is gonna take at least 4.5 hours, and there's not much we can do to change that, due to overcrowded courses, longer hikes from green to tee, etc.  So if one only has his 5 hour allotment, well one has to get the quick drink and go.  I believe most would WANT to stay longer, but most have realities of life.

Compare to UK or Ireland, where they too have realities - perhaps less, culturally, but I have to believe the differences aren't THAT great - so their golf takes 3.5 hours, then they socialize/drink for the remaining allotment, which of course is more.

I don't this is that much a matter of WILL... it's a matter of reality.

Dan K:

The USGA handicap system certainly does not require each hole to be finished - you know this - or if not, read the rules.  But more importantly, consider how many golfers today actually have official handicaps and post scores v. those that don't.  The latter is still the majority, by far.  So how is this then the USGA's fault?

I'd say it's a cultural thing that the USGA reacted to, rather than created.  Americans love stroke play, for whatever reason.  The USGA handicap system was created to facilitate this love and need.  

I assume you'll disagree.  But please do explain why, if you care to.

TH

[TEPaul]

"Is Speed of Play Cultural?"

Sean:

No it is not. Speed of play is ethnic!

Did you not realize that an over-concern with speed of play is nothing more than virulent racism in somewhat of an obvious disguise?

[TEPaul]

On the other hand, let me ask all you speed merchants something. Do you all have someplace else to be in 4 hours and 35 minutes after ever round you play?

Why don't you just slow down, take your time and enjoy life?If you do that rather than attempting to race around a golf course as fast as possible as well as upset yourselves and everyone else by trying to make them do it too, maybe you just might tack enough time onto the end of your life to play another thousand rounds or so.

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP - I refer you to my last post.  If I'm with friends - which I am damn near all golf rounds - then it's just a matter of how best to allot the time we're allowed.  That can work well with 3.5 hours of golf and 2 hours of drinking, or 4.5 hours of golf and 1 cocktail hour.  Either way, I'm with you, speed just for the sake of going fast doesn't seem wise, nor fun, to me.

In any case, sadly yes, my wife damn well does tend to have a place she wants me at other than the golf course... I've just come to convince her that golf takes at least 5.5 hours.

 

[JohnV]

IMHO, the USGA deserved a big share of the blame. They convinced American golfers that regardless if you are playing medal or match play, every single box on the scorecard should have a number on it. Even if you are playing a match, and your opponent has already conceeded the hole, it doesn't matter, you need a number. If you don't have a number, what will you put into the computer at the end of the round?

Dan
The USGA does not require you to finish every hole.  In fact, it doesn't require you to finish any hole (unless you are playing in a stroke play competition.)

Section 4-1 of the USGA Handicap System Manual says:

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record handicap purposes the most likely score.  The most like score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit.  This most likely score should be preceded with an "X".

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

Perhaps the problem is that there are a lot of uneducated golfers out there.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In response to Tom's, surely it's religious difference.  Time for the old chestnut:

Rabbi, Catholic Priest and Baptist Minister playing golf together.  Their round takes 7 hours and they rush in to complain to the Secretary/Manager to complain about the pace of play in the match in front of them.

'I'm terribly sorry you had such a long round, but the players in front of you were blind.'

Catholic Priest: How awful! How shaming! I must go straight to confession

Baptist Minister: Thank you, Lord, for showing yourself to me in this way.

Rabbi: Couldn't they have played in the dark?

[TEPaul]

TomH:

If it's a cocktail you and your golfing buddies really want, then, yes, you're damn straight you should rush around a golf course as fast as possible.

The only reason Scots play so fast is they want to play 36 holes in a day with a nice lunch and a bunch of drinks in between. The latter is so important to them and always has been they even developed this method long ago where they only need to hit the ball half the times it gets hit.

[TEPaul]

DanK:

Is the USGA responsible for getting us into this quagmire in Iraq too?



MarkR:

That was terrific!

[A.G._Crockett]

DanK:

Is the USGA responsible for getting us into this quagmire in Iraq too?

TomPaul,
Probably not DIRECTLY responsible; however, the President's grandfather WAS the USGA head, wasn't he?

[JohnV]

TEP,

The USGA is also to blame for the shortage of oil because their private jet uses too much of it.

Tom H, good point regarding handicaps.  Most golfers don't have them so why are they concerned about posting.  Also, the slowest play is usually at the public courses where the percentage of those without handicaps is even smaller.

At Hannastown, you will get beat up by the other players if your group is over 4 hours on a weekend morning.  Rounds are usually around 3:45.  Last Friday I played the original 9 twice in 2:10 walking, it was wonderful.

Mark,  good story.  The following is true.  It was told to me by David Jacobsen, Peter's brother.

Peter and some friends were playing a famous Scottish course that regularly hosts the Open championship.  They had an 8:30 tee time, but were late arriving  from the States the night before so they didn't get teed off until around 10.  The Secretary was not there that morning, so he didn't see them tee off.  They reached the 14th hole around 12:45 at which point, the Secretary came roaring up on a maintenence cart said, "Bloody Hell Peter!  Open your bloody legs man!  Open your legs!" and roared off in a cloud of dust.

After the round, the Secretary who had since been apprised of the late start, came in and apologized as they were having lunch.

[TEPaul]

"TomPaul,
Probably not DIRECTLY responsible; however, the President's grandfather WAS the USGA head, wasn't he?  

A.G.

Yes, he was and that means there's no question the USGA should take full responsibilty for the war in Iraq.

Furthermore, Little Shrub's blatant show of Evangelical Right-Wingery is total horseshit. His grandmother was one to the founders of Planned Parenthood and that means his Right To Life stance is a fraud and his soul must burn in Hell forever for causing the deaths of billions of unborn babies.

Little Bush isn't even religious for Christ's Sake. All that nonsense was just cooked up by Karl Rove at least a decade ago as a way to flush out of the woodwork and into the voting booths this multi-million person phenomenon known as the Evangelical Right.

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