[Tony_Muldoon]

I’m now persuaded that golf would be improved in every way if a rolled back ball was introduced, particularly (but not only) for the elite golfer.  In the future we need shorter, cheaper courses that take less time to play.

Before my back said no more, I used to enjoy playing squash, a game at which I was every bit as inept at as I am at golf. But squash has a series of balls which offer less bounce and speed the more ability you have (they even have a super ball which is only in play for the professionals.)  Again in a colder region you might choose to use a faster ball than you would normally play with.

But here's the interesting thing, despite the ball rules in Squash being designed to help players of all abilities, once you are half competent all everyone wants to play with is the most difficult one, the yellow spot.  The marketing departments of the various manufacturers would have field day selling the new pro ball – for the skilled golfer.  I would therefore predict that within 5 years of the pro's adopting such a ball all serious players would want to use it as well.  Beginners, wise folk and older golfers would still get the help available now.


This is the link

http://www.worldsquash.org/rules14.html

And this is how they specify the balls.
SPECIFICATIONS OF A STANDARD YELLOW DOT SQUASH BALL
The following specification is the standard for a yellow dot ball to be used under the Rules of Squash.
Diameter (millimetres) 40.0 + or - 0.5
Weight (grams) 24.0 + or - 1.0
Stiffness (N/mm) @ 23 degrees C. 3.2 + or - 0.4
Seam Strength (N/mm) 6.0 minimum
Rebound Resilience - from 100 inches/254 centimetres
@ 23 degrees C. 12% minimum
@ 45 degrees C. 26% - 33%
NOTES
1. The full procedure for testing balls to the above specification is available from the WSF. The WSF will arrange for testing of balls under standard procedures if requested.
2. No specifications are set for faster or slower speeds of ball, which may be used by players of greater or lesser ability or in court conditions which are hotter or colder than those used to determine the yellow dot specification. Where faster speeds of ball are produced they may vary from the diameter and weight in the above specification of a standard yellow dot squash ball. It is recommended that balls bear a permanent colour code or marking to indicate their speed or category of usage. It is also recommended that balls for beginners and improvers conform generally to the rebound resilience figures below.
Beginner Rebound resilience @ 23 degrees C not less than 17%
Rebound resilience @ 45 degrees C 36% to 38%
Improver Rebound resilience @ 23 degrees C not less than 15%
Rebound resilience @ 45 degrees C 33% to 36%
Specifications for balls currently fulfilling these requirements can be obtained from the WSF on request
The speed of balls may also be indicated as follows
Super slow - Yellow Dot
Slow - White Dot or Green Dot
Medium - Red Dot
Fast - Blue Dot
3. Yellow dot balls which are used at World Championships or at similar standards of play must meet the above specifications but additional subjective testing will be carried out by the WSF with players of the identified standard to determine the suitability of the nominated ball for Championship usage. The slowest speed of balls intended for elite players and Championship usage may if required be identified by a double yellow dot. Such balls will be deemed for the purposes of this specification to be yellow dot squash balls.

[TEPaul]

Tony:

In my opinion, when one tries to make these kinds of analogous comparisons from other sports to golf, one needs to remember that golf is one of the few games in which the ball in not vied for. That makes a big difference in golf as it means the contest involving the ball is not against the human opponent physically.

[jeffwarne]

There's no doubt that's the answer.
Look at how many people hung onto persimmon clubs and blades (some still do)
There would be a certain appeal to the ego that would drive sales of higher spinning,deader balls to 10 hdcps and below.
yet a senior player could use a hotter ball and enjoy the game longer.
All nonsenior men's events held at scratch could use such a ball.
better players would learn to play with it and stay with it.
The women playing in PGA Section events could play the same tees and experience the same accuracy challenges that added distance brings. (No way you can convince me that a talented female pro playing a par 4 80 yards shorter doesn't have an advantage-the fairway is still the same width and her misses don't go as far offline)

Or we can build 600 yard par 4s and further widen the corridors demanded by safety.And walk backwards off every green 100-200 yards- a real pace-of-play joy.

[corey miller]

I don't have an opinion on the squash ball however I am a little hesitant to compare squash with golf by virtue of the fact that the squash rule making authorities thought nothing of changing the playing area at great expense to all facilities.  

Wasn't this a function of the ball or did other factors enter into this decision?  Does it compare to the ever present lust for more length on our golf playing fields?

[David_Elvins]

Tony,

The way I read it, I competition ball in squash is faster whilst a competition ball in golf would be slower.  THis is a big difference in my opinion as players always aspire to hit the ball faster.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony:

In my opinion, when one tries to make these kinds of analogous comparisons from other sports to golf, one needs to remember that golf is one of the few games in which the ball in not vied for. That makes a big difference in golf as it means the contest involving the ball is not against the human opponent physically.

Agreed, you can only take this so far and the fact that each player in golf has his/her own ball opens up all sorts of problems, but I still think there's something to learn here.  Introduce a sliding scale of balls (we already have that with tees) and I think more people will want to play the rolled back ball than some might have us believe.


Side question: anyone know when the first set of alternative tees were introduced in golf?

[Tony_Muldoon]

David I can't have explained it properly.  The grading sytem is
Super slow - Yellow Dot
Slow - White Dot or Green Dot
Medium - Red Dot
Fast - Blue Dot

IE the best players must use the Yellow or slowest balls.  Today all golf marketing is about selling the longest or long and controllable ball.  In squash most players choose to buy the slowest ball even if as average palyers they would replicate the pro game better with a faster ball.



Corey
I haven't played in 15 years so sorry I know nothing about the larger court you refer to.

[ForkaB]

Tony/Corey

I haven't played squash in 35+ years, but my guess is that any court changes were made when they unified the game.  In the good olde days the US and UK/Colonial games were very different with the US using a smaller, harder and faster ball and the Limeys a mush ball.  I think they unified under the mush ball 10-20 years ago, and there may well have been some unification of court size too.

Getting back on topic, this is a very relevant thread.  I have always believed that WHEN we get a competition ball, all the relatively good (i.e. single digit and below) amateurs will switch to it (as well as many double digit players), for the reasons mentioned above.  It's bifurcation, baby, so get used to it!

[David_Elvins]

Tony,

Apologies, a slip in my comprehension skills.

[ForkaB]

http://www.squashplayer.co.uk/history_of_squash.htm

Just looked up the squash thingy, and I was right (see above).  Massive shift in the USA from hard balls to mush balls and widening of the courts from 18 1/2 feet to 20-21 feet.  Not sure if the latter fact is beneficial to our cause....

[TEPaul]

"Side question: anyone know when the first set of alternative tees were introduced in golf?"

Tony:

The answer to that seems to be a bit unclear but it wouldn't surprise me if alternate tees or separate tees for men and women began to come in around the beginning of the teens.

Ron Prichard has said a number of times that early Ross courses had a single tee marker for all--men and women.

The actual beginning of the tee box came in at the end of the 19th century (around 1890 when a rectangular tee was mentioned). Before that the rule in golf for teeing off is very interesting. Initially the golfer had to tee off within one club-length of the previous cup, and as the years went on the rule for the limit of club-lengths from the previous cup got farther and farther until finally a separate area was allow in the Rules with no distance limitation from the previous cup and only demarked by tee markers (tee markers for the first time)

[jeffwarne]

TEPaul,
You missed the most recent rule on teeing grounds.
On modern courses the tee must be located at least a dozen homesites and/or 2 wooden bridge cart rides away.
On courses built before 1950 the tee must be located at least 200 yards behind the preceeding green,but at least you can leave your bag and retrieve it after your 400 yard walk.

[SPDB]

I play squash at least 5 times a week. Moreover, when I was playing in college, we switched from the narrow (North American) court, to the wider (international) court, a shift that carried with it a change in ball (from hardball to softball).

To respond to Corey's point, there was never a shift announced by the rule making body. It was a function of the Americans holding on to the hardball game, despite the overwhelming international popularity of softball.  Think of America's recalcitrance w/r/t adopting the metric system, and you get some idea of what was taking place.

The difference in softballs (yellow dot, double yellow, etc), and the reason why the pros play with a softer ball, is that the ball becomes livelier the harder you hit and the warmer the ball gets. Pros hit the ball very hard, and very often, hence a softer ball makes more competitive sense, since it warms up very quickly and stays hot and lively throughout the match.

It isn't really an attempt to slow the professional game down.

[Brian Phillips]

Tony,

I am an ex pro squash player and the way I see it this:

It does not matter what the hell you do to the rules in squash, it is still one against one at exactly the same time. No advantage gained by anyone.

I like your analogy.

In the end it comes down to exactly what Tom Paul has said for a number of years and that is creating a 'match' ball which the 'pros' and club players use while the beginners use other non-match balls.

I suppose the day will come when we will have 'match' ball competitions in our golf clubs and 'non-match' ball competitions.

In the end all players with a handicap of 20 or less will want to play with the 'match' ball because it is a macho thing, like playing off the back tees.

I think the manufacturers could earn even more money from it. They would start creating two types of 'long' balls.  One type is a 'match' ball the other a 'non-match' ball.  The advertising would be good as well they can now aim at two completely distinct customers...non match and match.


I am just pissed off now that I never thought of it, Tony!

I train my local squash club every Saturday (for my sins) and the juniors in the 10 am session use Blue dot and the older juniors use the Red dot.

Even when I was a pro, we still trained with a red dot so as to train under the same conditions of a really 'hot' yellow dot.

Do you guys know what is in a squash ball?

Water, that turns to steam when warmed up, that's what keeps ya 'balls' warm!!


Brian

[Tony_Muldoon]

Brian would you know or could you hazard a guess as to the % of the balls sold that are yellow dot (ie designed for the most skilful)?

PS how are your knees these days?

[Dan King]

I think this was JohnV's idea ages ago.

There is no reason manufacturers couldn't make a large variety of balls for a variety of levels of play.

Say there are six different types of balls.
A 250, 275, 300, 325, 350, 375 ball, each with able to fly a different amount. The pros will probably play with the 250 ball, best amateurs probably the same and maybe senior and women's tour a 300 ball.

When you enter your score for handicap you would also enter the ball you played the round with.

You and I go out to play a round of golf. We are playing at a course with a slope of 120, you want to use the 250 ball, I like my 325 ball. You're a handicap of 2 I'm a 12. We go to the easy to use program at the pro shop which shows at those handicaps, that slope and our balls of choice I should only get two shots a side. If I want to get more shots, I'll have to use a different ball. We want to play the course even, then I might go to a higher number ball.

Everyone is happy. Better players can pick a ball that gives them the challenge they want, not so good players can hit a ball that best fits their game. Architects are happy, they can design with some idea of lengths players will hit, manufacturers are happy they sell more balls, and the USGA and R&A will have more software to sell.

Dan King

Golf is more exacting than racing, cards, speculation or matrimony. In almost all other games you pit yourself against a mortal foe; in golf it is yourself against the world: no human being stays your progress as you drive your ball over the face of the earth.
  --Arnold Haultain (The Mystery of Golf)

[Sean Walsh]

Dan,

I think you need to visit the patent office..

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:  I like your analogy.  And I believe it can happen, because it happened in golf before, with the gradual phase-out of the 1.62-inch ball in the early 1980's.  Once you make the ball a must for the top amateurs, they will insist that their opponents at other levels use the same ball they do, and on back it comes.

[Doug Siebert]

Tony,

The problem with this comparison I see is that when less skilled players are using the slower balls it makes the game EASIER for them, because they can return balls they otherwise would not be able to.

I hope Dan King patents his idea, so we can guarantee it'll never see the light of day!  The only way I don't think that's the dumbest idea I've yet seen for the problem (far worse than "do nothing") is if the highest number ball is today's ball, and we make one or more lower numbered balls.  But if today's ball is a "300", I don't ever want to be on a course where they allow people to use a "375", even if they are all 18 handicaps.  Especially if they are, in fact!

[Dan King]

Doug Siebert writes:
But if today's ball is a "300", I don't ever want to be on a course where they allow people to use a "375", even if they are all 18 handicaps.  Especially if they are, in fact!

The numbers aren't all that important. The current ball goes upward of 375 with optimal swings. Chances are the people hitting the 375 balls are not going to have optimal swings. The number isn't some sort of guarantee, it is essentially the furthest that ball will go.

Someone with an 80mph swing speed isn't going to hit a 375 ball 375 yards. They will hit it around 220. But should they use that same swing to hit a 250 ball they might max out at like 170.

Dan King

The advent of the rubber ball was instrumental in creating an entirely different method of striking the object. The solid ball required to be hit for carry, whereas it was quickly apparent that the Haskell lent itself to an enormous run. I hold the firm opinion that from this date the essential attitude towards accuracy was completely lost sight of. This was the start of the craze for length and still more length.
  --Harry Vardon, 1933

[Brian Phillips]

Brian would you know or could you hazard a guess as to the % of the balls sold that are yellow dot (ie designed for the most skilful)?

PS how are your knees these days?

Tony,

I would reckon about 95% are yellow dot.

My knees are absolutely shot.  I cannot even kick a soccr ball with my left leg these days.  Five years in the Army didn't help though...

That is why I took up golf.  I used to be sponsored by Dunlop as a junior and played for Hong Kong but I just was not good enough to make it big time.  I will always remember being told that I should think about becoming a coach instead of playing full time....heart broken.

Brian

[Brian Phillips]

The problem with this comparison I see is that when less skilled players are using the slower balls it makes the game EASIER for them, because they can return balls they otherwise would not be able to.

Doug,

The slower the ball in squash the more difficult it is to keep it in play as it 'dies' too quickly for a return.  If I played against nearly anyone on this board and put spin on a dropshot they would not be able to retrieve it with a yellow dot.

A blue dot (one of the fastest balls) would bounce 'high' and therefore remain in the air a much longer time giving the opponent much more time to retrieve the ball.

Brian

[Tony_Muldoon]

Brian would you know or could you hazard a guess as to the % of the balls sold that are yellow dot (ie designed for the most skilful)?

PS how are your knees these days?

Tony,

I would reckon about 95% are yellow dot.

Brian

Thanks Brian 95% amazingly high.  If anyone here doubts that the average player will want to play the same ball as the skilled guys there's your proof.

When I had been playing about 6 months, the pro got me to play against another beginner with the prize being a spot on the 'ladder' (it's a form of league where you challenge those above you to a match - it's the way to improve.  Does anyone have it at their golf club - with matchplay it would work really well.).
The day came and it was minus something outside and only just above that on the court. Well with nerves and the temperature we couldn't get the ball warmed up. When I suggested we give a red ball I had a try, my opponent looked me up and down to check I wasn't wearing a skirt.

I think it's interesting that at your level of the game you actually use the red ball in training because you understand the game. For everyone else it's yellow ball all the way.  How many times do you see your juniors reach for it as soon as the lesson is over?


Also from a marketing perspective I think a system of various ball specs will be easier to sell to most people than a choice between the 'skilled' (newly regulated) ball and the 'other' (i.e. todays)  ball, even if the net result is the same i.e. the majority will choose the skilled balls 'the one the pro's play with'.

My back feels for your knees.

[Brian Phillips]

I think it's interesting that at your level of the game you actually use the red ball in training because you understand the game. For everyone else it's yellow ball all the way.  How many times do you see your juniors reach for it as soon as the lesson is over?

Everytime....I always have a discussion with the older boys.  the girls just do what I tell them to do but the lads are always trying to sneak a yellow dot on court.

It is the same in golf with tees.  I always like to play matchplay and play off tees that I can thump the ball a bit without much worry about losing the ball.  This usually means I like playing off tees that suit my handicap of 8 which is probably the yellows in Britain or second/third tee from the back in the US....however, whenever we are a group of guys on a trip we all end up traipsing to the back tees even though we are not good enough to play from there..

It is the usual thing that people like to play a sport in exactly the same way the pros do.

Brian

[Sean_A]

This idea of different types of balls for different levels is very intriguing.  What I really like about it is that it may be easier for folks to play off the same tees.  I really dislike separate tees for juniors, women, seniors etc.  It makes a sociable game unsociable. 

I assume there would be no choice in the selection of balls.  Otherwise, low cappers could still choose the hot ball and this doesn't solve the issue of distance.  If there is no choice in ball selection, how is it decided which ball players will use?  I spose it is easy for any scratch tourny to stipulate which ball is in play (sounds very much like a special competition ball eh?). 

Assuming distance is a problem for the broad spectrum of players, the problem I envision is for friendly play.  Afterall, friendly play is the backbone of golf!  How is it decided who hits which ball?  This can be very messy because there is no such thing as the average golfer in any handicap range.  Some 10s hit it a mile, some scratches don't hit it far at all.  Focusing on one aspect (distance) of the game when there are many other elements could lead to further problems. 

Ciao

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