[Mike Hendren]

I liked this hole enough to remember it 3 years later after playing both courses.  Given the orientation of the green and its slope, the left-hand fairway is a sucker play unless one can leave the ball just short-right of the green.  Otherwise the pitch is surprisingly dicey with better odds approaching from 125 yards out at the end of the long fairway.  Really forces the player to measure the length of his second whereas all too often the distance of the second shot is indifferent to meaningless on a true three-shot hole.  



FWIW, I also liked the pushed up green and square tees on the short 13th - very classy, traditional stuff from C&C.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

What a cool-looking golf hole!

But never having been there, I'm not wholly getting why the left fairway is a sucker play.  What makes the pitch so dicey?  And assuming one plays realistic tees - I'm thinking I'd be at the 521 tee - is there no way to get there in two? Is it uphill or something?  I recall the ball flying pretty far in the desert - so while 521 is normally too far for two blows for me - well... I'm thinking out there it might be doable.  So if that's the case, I'm also not seeing much of a penalty if I fail... BUT I trust you my friend, there must be such.

This just warrants further explanation.  Tell me better why I should leave it it at 125 on the right.  It looks pretty wide up by the green from the diagram.  Yes I see that's a better angle in, not having to clear the bunker, but that bunker better be pretty severe and the green sloped away or something for me to fear the pitch up right close to the green.

You are my caddie.

 

[Mike Hendren]

What the heck, here's the tasty 13th as well:

[Tom Huckaby]

That is very tasty - I assume from the name it's a dropshot?  That's cool, but it would be even better if the nest in question were the green.

But anyway you are failing as a caddie.  I'm standing in the fairway on 14 and the groups are backing up.  Gary McCord is reading me the riot act on air.  I'm dying man, tell me what to do!

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Generally, I recall the green generally sloping downward from back left to front right and perhaps a bit more elevated than depicted.  Us mere mortals will want to make sure we carry the wash and will likely cheat a little left rather than flirt with it, thereby putting us in the least desirable position for our third.  The line for the second is not at the green, though it is visually charming.  Pin location might be the determining factor.

I would not expect you to grasp this as you practitioners of the long aerial game render architecture obsolete on a regular basis.  

As my pal Alan Jackson sang, it's all right to be little bitty.

Also, the 13th green is pushed up and I don't recall the surface being visible from the tee.

Mike

[Doug Wright]

TH,

I've only played TSS once so I don't remember #14 that well. I do think the issue was more trusting your ability to hit a straight second shot with a fairway wood and not cut it into the barranca/wash than strategy of playing right for a better angle. But I could be wrong...

#13 is a really classic short par 3 with a small well bunkered push-up green.

Talking Stick South is really underrated and underappreciated IMO. They ran out of real estate on the 18th, but the other 17 holes are classic, and some of the greens are really excellent. Play both courses in a day and marvel at how different two adjacent courses can be on what was flat barren desert land.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Oh man, you must not be reading the several other threads in which I call myself Joe Average distance-wise.  Sure the shivas's of the world are going straight at that green.  But me?  As I say it seems to be just outside of where I can get there in two.  What has me thinking of taking the chance though is that I really do believe I can get it to short right where I have a pretty simple chip up the slope, no bunker in the way.  From the diagram, it looks pretty wide up near the green - in any case just as wide as the right fairway.

So this is a GREAT instance of the temptation that Tom Paul is talking about on another thread as well.  I am sitting in that fairway and it's damn tempting to just take a whack at it, as the penalties don't look all that bad.

Again understand I am saying this as a fairly average player length-wise.  I really think I am.

So yes, for those who can't get it more than 450 yards in two strikes no matter what, I'd say you're better off staying right and I get that, because the angle in is also going to matter big time.

I don't put you in that class btw, I've seen you play.  

So just for the sake of fun here, let's make this all about ME.  I am paying you for god's sake.  Let's eliminate the short hitters and the really long hitters.

Why shouldn't I go at the green?  I figure I'm sitting at 250 in.  As I say, the desert air allows for long distances even for schmoes like me.  I just hit my drive 271 - only the desert allowed that.  And 250 is about 10-15 yards longer than the normal 3-wood will go.  But what's to stop me from trying to get it 10 yards short on the right?  Looks pretty wide up there....

Save me from temptation, oh conscience and caddie.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

You're standing over your second with a 3-wood nestled against that ProV1.  Your last glimpse up is not at the spacious fairway right of the green but at - THE PIN!

Mike

[Doug Wright]

TH,

Your last glimpse with 3 wood in hand also could be at the barranca looming if you cut it a bit too much. As I recall it isn't very nice in there with the snakes...

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha!  Thanks to both of my caddies.  Ok, the first one says hell if I've hit it this far with this newfangled ball, I ought to have no worries and just pinseek.  The other is like the gay guy stalking the conquering general as he walks up to face Caesar in History of the World Part III:  "remember, thou out mortal... remember, thou art mortal... remember, thou art mortal...."

And knowing myself and not having nearly the confidence that caddie 1 has in me, the words of caddie 2 are powerful.

Does that barranca mean lost ball?  And hearkening back to another recent thread, how is it marked?  Is it through the green or hazard?  From the diagram, could go either way.  This impacts the decision.

But just like our country, I am now leaning right.  I don't want to go in that hazard.  But on the other hand, I do think I can get to where I have a pretty easy chip....

It's still up in the air.  One of you break the deadlock.

TH

[Doug Wright]

Damn, I can't remember if it's a hazard or through the green a la #12 TSN--should we call the club?  

[Doug Wright]

TH,

I think it's a waste area, but as I recall it's pretty deep and wouldn't be a bargain in there. Certainly better than a hazard from a risk standpoint but I know it got my attention when I played the hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Got it.

Ok, the confident caddie having fled the premises, it seems like we are going right.  Because even I can see the only reason to go left is if you can get it very close to the green.  A layup to the left side would be stupid.  And I can now hear the snakes in that canyon hissing, and I'm not hoping for sympathetic marking turning that into a water hazard, and I know how many 3woods I do tend to wildly slice.

So thank you very much for the exercise.  We have now hit a fine little 9iron up the right side, and we have 125 in.

 

[Doug Wright]

I think this exercise confirms Mike's point that this is a nice strategic hole...

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug:  absolutely.  I had no doubt it would turn out that way.  This is one hell of a great golf hole by any criterion.

But we knew that - Mr. Hendren does have exceedingly good taste.

 

[Brian Noser]

I played here but I do not remember this hole?? I hit the ball terrible on that course so that may have had somthing to do with it. I will let you know what I did if I think of it. I would think that from the length I would have gone for it in 2 unless I hit a bad drive.

edit: I remember it now after looking at the web site I will be no help skanked a drive left had to lay up.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brian - I'm now YOUR caddie.  I've seen you play and the prodigious distances your tee shots travel.  Good lord yes you're going for it in two - you're gonna have an iron in your hand for the second unless you REALLY mis-hit one.

Just do favor the left - we can still make four from the bunker.

 

[Brian Noser]

Thanks Tom, I always need the help, as Mr. simper can attest I can hit the shots I just do not always choose the right ones to hit, I guess that would be the key.   and yes we would make four from the bunker with my John Daly esque short game and unfourtunetly his physique.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks Tom, I always need the help, as Mr. simper can attest I can hit the shots I just do not always choose the right ones to hit, I guess that would be the key.   and yes we would make four from the bunker with my John Daly esque short game and unfourtunetly his physique.

You and me both re the physique, bruthah!

Just stick with me - we'll go places.

 

[rjsimper]

That hole scared the tar out of me on the second shot, and I thought only briefly about the left fairway and played to the right - it's not that going right is tough, but part of you just thinks going left is going to gain you something...when it wont.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - I've maintained all long just from the diagram that one only ought to go left if one thinks he can get it on or close to the green.  Laying up left gains doesn't just gain nothing, it's a net negative - it seems to me to be a shot to a tighter area, leaving a worse angle in.

But I betcha a lot of people do go left anyway.  

[Brian Noser]

Ryan, is just scared all the time, I hit the ball terrible and he needed a birdie on the last hole to beat me.

[Brad Tufts]

I think I will take this opportunity to point out that one of Ryan's college nicknames was Green Light.  Tell us, Simper, you went for it in two from 290 didn't you.....

[Brian Noser]

See I told you scared, or unlike any of us he is busy at work.

[rjsimper]

Easy easy boys.

Just my luck here...too busy at work to defend myself today.

Tufts is right - they call me Green Light because I try to find any excuse, infinitesmal as it may be, to go for the green in two.  

That being said, I recall being about 290 out and wanting so badly to try and hit that shot to the left with a little cut...but I couldn't bring myself to do it.  

When I can't bring myself to hit the shot, or even to find myself close to taking the leap, then I know it's not a good or reasonable "option" presented before me.  

One just needs to get through their head that it's a full-wedge type par 5 rather than a flip SW third shot, and be happy playing it down the right every single time.  You can wait until 18 to get saucy with the big dog

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