competition....the shortest par-4...in the entire world!!!

[Michael Robin]

JSlonis - I believe Trevino actually had named a shorter par 5:  The 11th at Shinnecock.

[Bill_McBride]

Of course the 1st at Painswick is the poster child of short par 4s!  Just 220 yards, but up such a steep hill that you usually stop for a blow not once but twice.    They keep the fairway grass cut to about two inches so the tee shot doesn't roll back down to your feet!    The pitch is absolutely blind to a tiny green fronted by a gnarly grass bomb crater ("grass bunker" doesn't do this crevasse justice!).  

The hole is called "Attack," but that's wishful thinking.  

[Doug Siebert]

Jordan,

I agree with Tom H, I don't buy it as a par 4 if I'm hitting a 7 iron at it.  If its into the wind I'll need more, but that'll also make the green easier to hold.  And I'd still say its not a legitimate par 4 even if I played it 10 times and scored a 4 on it each time.  No one person's game is the arbiter of a hole's par, it is the score an expert golfer should expect to make with flawless play.  Which, in my book, means even if he can't hold the green, making a decent showing on the uphill chip and holing the putt isn't too much to ask.

And sorry, not to be a yardage snob, but par 65 at 4326 yards is not a legitimate golf course.  If we are opening this up to all comers, I'm sure there is an exec course somewhere with a shorter par 4.  If we do a shortest par 3 thread should I submit one of the 50 yard holes on the Turnberry Hotel's front lawn?

[Evan Fleisher]

At my home course here in Dubuque (which measure sin at a whopping 6,000 yards) we have a few very short, but spoty par-4's...BTW we are a par 70 course.

Our 2nd hole plays straight uphill into the prevailing wind...it is a hole that plays slightly diagonally across the teebox and the green sits on a hilltop site and is canted severely left to right and slightly back to front across the line of play making it very difficult to hold the green with ANY club.  It plays all of about 275-280 and is a hoot to play.

[Jordan Wall]

At a course called Echo Falls, a 'real' course, the third is 258 and downwind, usually.  Its pretty fun.  Ive hit three iron to it, but once into the wind (rare) I hit driver SW from 60, so its hard.  Not really, actually, but its real short!

[archie_struthers]

Wayne Morrison

My bad, I meant the eighth not 12th  Merion West.

[Evan_Green]

#1 at Painswick is 224 yard par 4

#12 is a 250 yard par 3

[Steve_Lovett]

All,

Here is the deal with the 12th at Wayne Golf Course...  It is located in my hometown (Bothell, WA) and for better or worse I played it about a gazillion times growing up.  Fortunatly, I am three time zones east of it and haven't been subjected to the place in many years.

To reach the green in one stroke is nearly impossible.  It requires a wild slingshot slice up a hill, around extremely tall trees, over a creek and bunker to a tiny green probably 6-7 steps deep benched into the slope.  It is a sharp dogleg right, which bends probably 110-120 yards off the tee.  The only reasonable way to play the hole is with a wedge off the tee, preferably to the left edge of the fairway so you aren't stymied by the trees - then a super-precise flip wedge up the hill to the green.  If short, you roll back into the bunker (hopefully) or all the way into the creek.  If long, you have a hanging lie which is nearly impossible to stop on the super-shallow green.

It is neither a good hole, or a good course.  Despite it's short length, with the sharp dogleg it wouldn't be appropriate to consider it a par-3.  Access to the green off the tee is nearly impossible.

I agree with the assessment - it is hardly a legitimate golf course by any standard (other than the fact it has 18 holes).

[Jordan Wall]

I dont think it really bends too much, I have seen many people drive it...and also many people hit it into the water...if we had a competition for crappiest course in the world this course would also win.  The hole is driveable, I have done, it is fairly difficult for a hole of the length, but I feel just about anyone could reach it with a good drive...some of the trees have been removed, too, I think, Steve, because I do not think the hole bends 110-120 yards  Mybe 50 or 60 at most, but it is reasonable.

[Tom Huckaby]

Steve - AHA!  That's the description I've been waiting for - that is, description of something in the way that makes this more of a two-shot hole.  OK, I can live with it now.  It's weird to the max - just like the 220 yarder I mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread - but the way you describe it, I believe a course rater would lay up the scratch and thus make it a two-shotter.

But of course now we have Jordan arguing against it... and if we follow him, well we're back to no way it's a par 4.  If the trees have been removed and "just about anyone could reach it with a good drive", well then it's back to the state where we won't lay up the scratch.

So which of you two Seahawk fans has this right?

 

[Jordan Wall]

So which of you two Seahawk fans has this right?

 

If your talking about who's going to the Super Bowl then is there really any question at all!!!

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Good man Jordan - keep the faith.  Heck I'm rooting for you.

 

[Lloyd_Cole]

There is a course near here in N.W. MA called Bass Ridge. I may have mentioned it before. I've only been there once as a guest of my old neighbour and his pals neither of whom break 100, both are great guys. They love the place. It is their favourite. It is pretty high up. Goat country. And the acreage is very small. Total yardage must be around 5000 for 18. I would still argue that it is a fine little course. The first hole may actually fall more than it advances, if that makes sense. Anyways it has any number of driveable 4's the most memorable to me was one which was maybe 280 on the card (I cannot reacall exactly) but was about a 120 degree dogleg around a quarry. Small green(the green is the extent of the ) right on the edge of it with trees and another hole right behind. I had no idea how far the carry was so I think I hit 7 wood (about 200yds for me). It flew over the trees behind the green onto the next hole! My guess is about a 160 shot would make it. Is it a par 3 or 4? I don't know. Less than 2% of regulars would try to hit the green.. I had a great time at this course and had meant to return last year with camera. Which I did at least buy.. I will eventually.

[ChipOat]

Tom Huckaby:

Wayne gave you the gist about Merion West #8 except for the final piece of the puzzle as follows:

The green is very shallow (15 paces I'd reckon) with a rather steep bank behind it.  Also, there is a fair amount of back-front slope.  Erego, going for the green off the tee and being even a touch long leaves you with a very tough Mickelson Lob Wedge shot from a downhill/sidehill lie to a green that falls away from you.  The best "leave" on the hole is just short - pitching/chipping (mostly) uphill.

The green is just not deep enough to hold anything other than the most precise run-up.  Carrying it to the putting surface only works for someone who can carry it 250 uphill with a 3-4 iron or some kind of hybrid metal.  It would be a pretty lousy par 3, IMO.

Driveable?  Very.  Does it get you much?  Only if it works.  Most longer hitters have always gone for it ever since the course opened in 1914.  Lots of "others" have been one of the frequent results over ther years.

I'm glad Wayne's got the mojo to make it work.  By the time technology made it possible for me to get there, I was already too old.