[Jordan Wall]

What is the shortest par-4 in the world??  I actually think Steve Lovett and me know the shortest one, but lets see what you guys can come up with!!  BTW, I didnt look it up on Google, I mean from a course you have actually played!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmm... I've played a lot of holes that were called par fours on the scorecard, but weren't in reality... that is, 235 yard "par 4" that's straight with nothing in the way....

The shortest I've played that reasonably required two strokes to reach the green is a hole on the back nine at Deep Cliff, an executive course in Cupertino, CA.  It's about 220 and has a large creek fronting it, as well as being a significant dogleg.  To reach the green one would have to hit a 210 yard shot with about 60 yards worth of slice.  Normal shot is 160 or so out, 50 yard pitch in.

I have reached the green though.  

I'm sure that's not what you're thinking of, Jordan.  But it does exist.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Nope, sorry, shorter then 220 or 235.  Any other people know shorter ones??

BTW, this is a real hole and not like on a putt putt course or anything!

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan - I assume it does require two realistic shots to reach the green?  Anyone can doctor a scorecard.  

[Jordan Wall]

Well, it depends whether the normal winds are blowing at 20 MPH, whether you wanna risk clearing the water, and whether you wanna risk getting in the sand once you clear the water (which is super-super horrible sand, the only trap on the course, I think).  Then the green is very small and difficult and chips arent as easy as one might think.  Probably a little too short, but is a real, god honest, par 4 nonetheless!!

[Brad Tufts]

The shortest par four on a classic course that I have played is the 6th at Myopia, 260 yards from the tips, with a creek fronting the green 20 yards short.  The hole is straightaway with a hard right to left sloping green.  If you miss right going for the green, good luck hitting it with your second!  The hole is 7 yards longer than the 3rd, a 253-yd par 3.

I know there are par fours shorter like Tom's and Jordan's, but I would think most are located on "executive" courses, or have 120 degree doglegs around trees requring a 9-iron and a flip wedge.  There is no strategy involving driving the green on these holes, taking away one of the most fun options of a short par 4 (either too simple or impossible through trees).  I don' t know of any shorter par four than Myopia's #6 on a "course of note."

[Jordan Wall]

Believe it or not this course has a par-3 that is about 63 yards longer then this hole.  And the par-4 is definitely driveable, a risk reward thing.  Not a 90 degree dogleg, thats for sure!!  Actually, its a not really even a dogleg, and if you wanna call it that then it would be a realy slight one!!

Not an island green either!!

[Kyle Harris]

How much does the green slope away from the golfer?

Or... how much of a U-turn around a rock formation does the hole have?

Tillie had a few ideas for really short Par 4s like that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan - if it's just a matter of risk and prudence, than I am not gonna buy it as a par 4.  For it to require two shots, there has to be something blocking the path to the green - like the trees on the hole I mention, which make it a dogleg making expectation to reach the green very unreasonable.

Brad - I'm actually with you on most of that; however, I don't understand why the expectation of an option to drive the green is a requirement for you.  If anything I look at it exactly opposite - if we are talking holes right at the 250-260 normal distance requirement, or shorter, the more the green is driveable, the more it's a par three...and the less it's driveable, the more reasonable it is to call it a par four.  What am I missing?

BTW, I doubt Jordan is requiring this be on a "course of note."

 

[Jordan Wall]

Tom, I never said this was a course of note, I just said it had to be a course you played.  There is a large creek fronting the green and a large bunker right in front of the green too.  Yes Kyle, the green slopes away, but no Kyle, there is no rock formation around the green.

[SPDB]

Jordan - I love trivia, but I doubt you definitively know the answer to this.

[ForkaB]

The 2nd at Dornoch.  180 yards.

[Jordan Wall]

http://www.seattlegolfguide.com/public/pdfcourses/wayne.pdf

the 12th hole on the course map is a par-4.  It is 172 yards, no joke.  There have actually been double bogeys on this hole in tournament play!!  I know that nobody can beat that.  I usually hit an 8-iron to the green, but I have hit more or less as well.  I guess its more of a par-3, but not according to the course or the scorecard...the 9th on the map is the 240 yard par three!!  Never ever have I made a 2 on this hole, though, its not easy for 172 yards!

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich - good call - but dammit that's a par five all too often.

Jordan - I know, it was Brad who seemed to require this to be on a course of note.  In any case, sorry man, I don't buy that as a par 4.  Sure it's a tough hole, and I'm sure 10's have been made on it or worse.  But unless there's something stopping one from going at the green - other than the size of the green, the presence of hazards and the fact it's a very hard shot - then I can't see that as a par 4, no matter what the card says.  

TH

[SPDB]

I'll go with Merion (West) #8 for a real answer (241 yds)

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll go with Merion (West) #8 for a real answer.

SPDB - please describe, for those of us who don't know Merion.  I know we're a minority here, but indulge us, er, me.  What makes that a legitimate par 4?  Why can't one fire at the green?

TH

[Mike Benham]

the 12th hole on the course map is a par-4.  It is 172 yards, no joke.  There have actually been double bogeys on this hole in tournament play!!  I know that nobody can beat that.  I usually hit an 8-iron to the green, but I have hit more or less as well.  I guess its more of a par-3, but not according to the course or the scorecard...the 9th on the map is the 240 yard par three!!  Never ever have I made a 2 on this hole, though, its not easy for 172 yards!

How come all the greens are round?

Aren't you suppose to be at school?  Or have they given you the week off to prepare for the big game this weekend?

[SPDB]

Tom -
Nothing. For starters, the hole is uphill, so it plays considerably more than its length. The front left half is guarded by a fairly deep bunker. It's not a par 3, if that's what you're getting at.

[wsmorrison]

Merion West has a stretch of holes 6-8 that is probably the shortest par 3,4 and 4 in the world.  The 6th is a downhill (40') par 3 of 119 yards, it was 125 yards for the 1916 Am, the 7th is a level par 4 of 287 yards (280 in 1916) with a stream crossing the line of play twice and the 8th is sharply uphill par 4 of 242 yards while it was 275 yards in 1916.  It is very drivable today, even with a 3-wood.  There is a wide opening but the ground before it is contoured and there's trouble flanking either side in the form of deep bunkers.  The course plays firm and fast.

[Ryan Crago]

SPDB,

why is the Merion answer any more REAL that Jordan's?  Is it only because it is considered a "classic" course?  

[wsmorrison]

While I like the name of the course Jordan' cites, a better question is what makes the 12th hole a par 4?

[George Pazin]

Sounds like it'll play as a par 3 if they ever choose to award an open to Merion West.

[Tom Huckaby]

SPDB - so it effectively plays longer than 250?  That's the requirement for a par 4....

And Wayne, I asked Jordan the same question.  What does make that a par 4 on the course he lists?

TH

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

It does play longer than 250 and not many can drive the green.  I can.

I should have read your replies more carefully.  Normally I do.  It seems arbitrary that the 12th hole Jordan refers to is a par 3.  Even if it were steeply uphill which it probably isn't due to the presence of the stream/pond.

George,

When Merion was awarded the 1916 Amateur, they weren't sure up till a week or so before the tournament which course would hold match play, the East or West.  That's how highly regarded it was at the time.  In a practice round on the West, Bob Jones putted off the 6th green into a stream and it was swept out of bounds.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne - OK, fair enough, I can live with the hole at Merion West being called a par 4, and it might indeed be the champ for such at legitimate full-length courses. I keep coming back to course rating, which is a big part of my life, and if the hole plays effectively longer than 250, we won't have the scratch player reach the green - the approach will come in from effectively 250, or some shorter point if prudence dictates it.  That's why the long hole at Oakmont that people were touting as a great par 3 - what is it, 280 something? - in my book can be a great hole, but a great short par 4.  

It's gonna be VERY hard to believe that there's any justification that gets Jordan's hole to legit par 4 status.  Now way it can be due to distance - it would have to be up Mt. Everest to make 172 play longer than 250.  It can happen if something's in the way, like trees or a mountain or the like - but it doesn't seem to be the case from the diagram.  Looks to me like that's a hole that should be played prudently as a par 4 - the layup might be a wise choice, especially in strong wind - but that in fairness we just can't really call more than a par 3.

TH

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