Leave Merion to the Members and...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

I agree with you.

Narrowed fairways and deep rough, two of the things that everybody on GCA.com screams about when it comes to ANGC are employed as defenses at Merion to challenge the very same PGA Tour players and everybody on GCA.com says that's okay ?  ?  ?

Making greens rock hard and superfast only reinforces the point that the course has to be turned into a freak to be able to challenge the best players in the world.

Everyone cites the U.S. Amateur as proof positive that Merion can hold a U.S. Open.

Was that the recent tournament that was conducted at MATCH play ?

As to taking the driver out of the player's hands,
Why would they need a driver, they hit their 2-irons 30+ yards longer than PGA Tour Pros in the 50's & 60"s hit their driver.

The solution, the solution that nobody sems to want to work toward is: the competition ball.

Merion is a great golf course, why tinker with it for the sole purpose of holding an Open ?  They still haven't recovered their fairway widths from Opens held decades ago.  

[JESII]

Pat,

Do you agree with Mark's original position or his "yield to the floor" position? Take a look at a few posts prior to yours.

The competition ball, or some sort of I&B rule change would be fine by me although I don't understand the whole concept of creating a ball that effects me less than the Tour pro as Mark suggested he would like. I am pretty sure that can happen without too much trouble but explain to me why we should effectively gain an advantage on the top players through this type of decision.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Mark Brown wilted, he folded like a cheap suit under the withering crossfire from the Merionites.

His original premise holds true.

As to the competition ball, I would suggest the following.

If it were adopted for all USGA events and The Masters, I feel that regional, state and local golf associations would adopt it as well, and that eventually, it would trickle down to tournaments at the club level.

This summer I played with Ran Morrissett at Sand Hills.
He played with "hickories" circa either 1919 or 1928.

I was shocked at how far he hit the ball with his irons and woods.

While high tech has produced huge clubheads and longer, lighter shafts which allow you to swing faster, without fear of mis-hits, it became obvious to me, in remote Mullen, Nebraska, that the "ball" was out of control.

For, if, Ran Morrissett, armed with hickories circa the early 20th century can hit the ball that far, there is something desperately, desperately wrong with the ball.

If you ever saw his swing, you would know what I mean and know that I'm right.

[JESII]

Priceless, I love it.


I sympathize with your passion for a competition ball, in my view you have a very strong argument. Sad to say but I can see no reduction in ball distance, the best we can hope for is a cap. Just my opinion.


Was Ran able to carry the ball as far (relatively) as he might with modern equipment?

[john_stiles]

Obviously, I think a competition ball would be best and think the scenario would be accurate as to the competition ball being soon adopted at the other competitive levels and down to the club.

Absent that unexpected event,  I favor placing events at the long modern courses or those classics committed to quite frequent 'improvements' to the degree of difficulty for the top professionals.

Conditioning such as extremely tall, hack it out, rough is not for the best. Extremely hard greens, requiring water during play, is not for the best either.

Just select a rota of long, probably mostly modern, courses and be done with the temptation dangled in front of the classic courses.

Sorry this thread has gone off topic to some extent but then I realize any thread with USGA and US Open courses and their setup always gets back to the same topic, the ball.  Many course changes are necessary because of the ball  IF you desire a winning score near par.

However,

1)   The $2 golf ball can't be changed.  
2)   Low scores can't be acccepted.
3)   The $2 golf ball can't really be controlled as every rule gives some leeway to ball improvements.
4)   Only changes to the courses can be made. This is also the easiest solution to the problem.  It is a decision of no immediate risk and no cost to USGA.  All for a $2 golf ball.

[Scott Stearns]

As much as I regret it, I must say I agree with those who think the pro game has passed Merion by.

To those who like to look at the qualifying scores of 316 amateurs to determine the playability of the course for PGA Tour professionals, remember that the number of college players who have gone from school to the pga tour in recent years can be counted on one hand.  in other words, the pros are MUCH better than the very best amateurs, much less the qualifiers at 156-316 on the list

please look at the 2005 PGA tour driving stats.

70th place on that list was driving the ball 291 yards.  Even gearing down by hitting 2-iron to keep it in the fairway, that guy is hitting it 230-250.  thats a 50-70 yard half sand wedge to #10

more importantly, its 7 iron or less on every par four but three.

and this does not take into acct the fact that the short games of tour players are much better than the average US amateur qualifier.

I think Tom Paul is right--the success of the Open at Merion is largely dependent on weather, and unfortunately the tournament has gotten too big to depend on that.

[TEPaul]

Scott:

As far as scoring, any golf course today is going to get scored on by the world's best touring professionals if it's soft. Basically, there's nothing out there too long for them if soft.

However, firm and fast courses, particularly firm and fast courses like Merion would definitely have an effect on scoring for the best tour pros in the world. A lot of people for some reason sit there and calculate that a tour pro could hit wedge 10 or more times at Merion, or they could hit 2 iron off the tees or whatever and therefore tear the place apart score-wise. People who say stuff like that basically either don't know or just don't understand Merion. That may be true on some other courses but it's not true on Merion if the weather does cooperate and they can get that course firm and fast and set-up optimally to defend itself---and by optimally I do not mean taking it over the top set-up wise.

This is not to say that I don't think anyone could really score on Merion if it was set up optimally. I think it's definitely possible but to do it they'd have to play four really great rounds of golf. Isn't that what it's about? I could see someone playing the way Tiger Woods did in the US Open in 2000 going into double digits under par in an Open at Merion where the course was set-up optimally but he'd probably really blow the field away like Woods did in 2000.

[Mike_Sweeney]

So is the same true for Shinnecock? In my mind, the new Merion plays roughly the same type of distance as Shinnecock.

[David Ober]

As much as I regret it, I must say I agree with those who think the pro game has passed Merion by.

To those who like to look at the qualifying scores of 316 amateurs to determine the playability of the course for PGA Tour professionals, remember that the number of college players who have gone from school to the pga tour in recent years can be counted on one hand.  in other words, the pros are MUCH better than the very best amateurs, much less the qualifiers at 156-316 on the list

please look at the 2005 PGA tour driving stats.

70th place on that list was driving the ball 291 yards.  Even gearing down by hitting 2-iron to keep it in the fairway, that guy is hitting it 230-250.  thats a 50-70 yard half sand wedge to #10

more importantly, its 7 iron or less on every par four but three.

and this does not take into acct the fact that the short games of tour players are much better than the average US amateur qualifier.

I think Tom Paul is right--the success of the Open at Merion is largely dependent on weather, and unfortunately the tournament has gotten too big to depend on that.

In your context above, what does "MUCH better" mean to you as it applies to Merion?

The top 5-10 college golfers every year are PGA Tour caliber players. As you go down the list, they get further and further from that standard, but the top 50 college golfers in the country are certainly not MUCH worse (at least not as I would define it) than PGA Tour players -- especially not on a one or two round basis. Over four rounds, though, definitely.

[Craig_Rokke]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the amateurs
at Merion this summer compare to the pros as far as driving distance?

[wsmorrison]

Craig,

I don't think the difference is substantial.  In fact, the college golfers may hit the ball further on a regular basis.  They aren't making a living at it.  Tour pros probably can hit it as far or farther, they just don't.

I remember a conversation with Jim Sullivan where he said the tour pros rarely hit all out and usually dial it down quite a bit more regularly while college and lesser tour players are bombing it much more.  Hopefully Jim will come on and retell his tale of length on the different tours.  I only am repeating what I think I was told, so no vouching for accuracy here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So is the same true for Shinnecock? In my mind, the new Merion plays roughly the same type of distance as Shinnecock.

Mike,

You might not have noticed it, but, there's this thing called.... WIND.

It blows regularly, and, sometimes with good velocity,
out there on the East end.

I never really noticed it on Ardmore Avenue.[/color]

[George Pazin]

please look at the 2005 PGA tour driving stats.

70th place on that list was driving the ball 291 yards.  Even gearing down by hitting 2-iron to keep it in the fairway, that guy is hitting it 230-250.  thats a 50-70 yard half sand wedge to #10

more importantly, its 7 iron or less on every par four but three.

What course doesn't this hold true for anymore? Under ideal firm and fast US Open conditions, there aren't many par 4s left in golf that aren't driver wedge. Even 485 yard holes are approached with short irons, all too frequently.

And every course is highly susceptible to weather. Virtually any 7500+ yard course plays easy for the big boys if it's the least bit damp. Only the extreme weather of Bethpage prevents a wet course from becoming a pushover.

Logistics aside, the only possible complaint with Merion would be if someone was obsessed with what clubs people are hitting into greens (the new Augusta syndrome ).

[Sean_A]

Forget how the USGA sets up or wants to set up a US Open course.  That can be argued forever.  Some people like the courses and setups as "true" tests of golf (whatever that means) some people think they are boring (ie irons off tees or risk a broken wrist chipping back to fairways and crazy fast greens).  For you guys in the know, can Merion successfully hold an Open?  By successfully I mean would the course provide entertainment for players and fans?

I didn't see much of last year's US Open, but what I saw was entertaining, the best I have seen in years.  Guys were hitting drivers because they knew a recovery going for the green could be made if they missed on the right side.  I saw putting and chipping onto greens.  I saw putts holed from proper areas of greens and three putts fom wrong areas of the green.  In short, it was fun to watch.  Could Merion be as entertaining?

Ciao

Sean

[Mark Brown]

Patrick,

Sorry I wilted on the Merion post. It was a PR move. I still believe what I originally posted. Now the USGA has to do extensive remodeling at every course they select. It's gotten a bit ridiculous. Maybe they should build their own ideal U.S. Open course and play it there every year, but then the host courses would lose the $10+ million they make when they host it.

I never have agreed with the way they set courses up either. It's nice to see some birdies even at a major, versus great golfers playing defense, hoping not to make a fatal mistake.

Shinnecock was insane. Winged Foot is a perfect course for the Open -- nothing exciting, just tough and beastly. Raised greens with deep bunkers on both sides. On most of the holes there's only one way to play it, no width for strategy, just penal holes one after another. Give me Augusta for drama -- before all the misguided changes they've made in the last couple years.

I won't wilt on this one Patrick.

[Scott Cannon]

I played Riviera last spring. After I hit my tee shot on, I think it was the 12th hole, which is a strong hole anyway, I turned around and there was a tee box they had installed for there open bid. It was a full 70-90 yards back. Crazy

[ChipOat]

Mark Brown:

Your post #22 got you off the hook but your post #39 forces me to reply to your original premise.

Your limited TV viewing was just that.  To say that the predominant approach club was a wedge is just flat wrong.
#'s 3,5,6,9,14,17,18 and probably #16 were likely not wedge shots for any player - pro or amateur.  #'s 2 & 4 are par 5's so they don't count.

[Mark Brown]

chipoat,

What assortment of clubs did they hit off the tee. Was it a good test of driving skill -- or mainly fairway woods and long irons?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,


 but then the host courses would lose the $10+ million they make when they host it.

You must be dilusional my friend if you think host courses make that if any money at all...

[Mark Leo]

John K. is right.
My friend who is a member at Winged Foot says that the club was contracted to make 1 million for this years open, but he doubts they will even see a penny...

[John Kavanaugh]

I was very surprised and pleased to learn that the USGA is granting Victoria National $25,000 to help with expenses in hosting the US Senior Am.  I had no idea they helped at all with the hosting of these second tier tournaments.  I would have never guessed we would be paid for the honor of hosting an USGA championship.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

From my recollection, here is what perhaps the longest player the USGA has ever seen hit on all the tees at Merion East during his US Am qualifying round.

1. 3 iron
2. Driver
3. 5 iron
4. 3 wood
5. Driver
6. Driver
7. Long Iron
8. Long Iron
9. 8 iron (from 209 yds!)
10. 3 wood
11. long iron
12. Driver
13 SW
14. Driver
15. Driver
16. 3 wood
17-4-5 iron (247 yds!)
18. Driver

Sometimes he looks in on this site so if I'm off somewhere he might say but that looks like seven drivers to me. The interesting thing about many of Merion's holes is even if a player of this length does not hit driver on some of the holes, on a remarkable number of them the temptation is still eeriely there for one reason or another. You'll notice he hit driver on #15 and for his length that is very risky and matter of fact it began a very unfortunate chain of events. But that's just Merion East, particularly the famous last stretch.

One of the most interesting shots I saw in the US Am was Europe's Gary Wolstenholme on #17 in match play into a very slight breeze he hit the prettiest little low driver to what looked like about 3 ft!

[TEPaul]

This is a little OT but I thought I'd mention it because I've never seen anyone do this before but in practice for the US Am at Merion East the player who ended up being the medalist and also the player most thought would win the tournament about half-way through (sorry I can't recall his name---other than he's American) had a most interesting practice technique. I can't recall but I think he was out there carrying his own bag with three of his friends none of whom had a caddie but on a few holes he hit what he called "a marker". For instance on #14 he was in the middle of the fairway and took out a 9-iron and mentioned it was a "marker", hit it weill and then took out a 6 iron and hit that up somewhere around the pin. When we got up there his 9 iron was about 5 steps short of the front of the green. Interesting way of determining relative distances and club selections during practice. Perhaps he did it on #14 because the approach on that hole is somewhat uphill and the green is basically blind from the approach.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Leo,

Then your friend is misinformed.

JakaB,

U.S. Opens make money.
Especially when you consider all of the capital improvements that are made to the club that don't show up as a bottom line number.

[Dan Boerger]

I played Winged Foot this past summer and the member who hosted was under the impression the club would make money but didn't venture how much. He also mentioned the member vote to host the Open didn't pass by a resounding margin, and he believes the east course will be closed pretty much all year. Although that might be a large price to pay, I'm glad they are hosting. To me, the members are giving something back to the game that many of us appreciate.

Also, it's all conjecture at this point, but if (as TEPaul suggests) the weather conditions aren't too wet, I honestly think Merion will defend itself well. The greens offer some tremendously challenging positions without over the top speed. Some of the pin positions that make me quake are 12 front right, 17 back right, 7 front ...