Leave Merion to the Members and...

[Mark Brown]

In regard to courses that could host majors:

From what I saw of the Amateur (I know this is old news but..) Merion shouldn't host any majors or Amateurs. The only defense the course had was rock hard, slick greens. It's a great course for guys like us... unless one of the new, less lively prototype balls is approved by the USGA.

[John Kavanaugh]

Did you check this out with Smyers...Are you nuts, Merion was the most interesting tournament venue of the year including ANGC, Chicago GC, Whistling Straits, etc..etc...

[Mark Brown]

John

From what I saw they had wedges in their hands most of the day and because of the firm greens on many holes everyone's ball ended up in the same place. On 18 all the balls rolled to the back of the green. No makeable putts.

Am I wrong?

[Bill Shotzbarger]

The firmness of the greens has nothing to do with the course's beautiful and penal bunkering and the perfect architecture. What people don't realize is that courses like Merion take the driver out of the long bombers' hands and forces them to play smart, strategic golf. Molinari won because he made every single putt he had, not because he could hit a driver 300+.

I think you're wrong, and hopefully more people can add on to this post. I've only played the course once and am fairly new to this architecture stuff.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please check the following link..

http://www.usamateur.org/2005/scoring/csuma.htm

[Mark Brown]

Bill

What's so good about taking the driver of play and have putting determine the winner. What about mid and long irons into the greens rather than wedges?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

You have to be pulling our leg...You would prefer a 7,800 yd course that produces an eight over par scoring average to a 6,800 yd course that has the same result.  Did you buy a sod farm in the last nine months..

[Mark Brown]

John,

I just think Merion, like many other classic courses have to be tricked up, because they're too short for the Tour players.

If they approve a "shorter ball" that could change everything.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I believe you are wrong about the way Merion plays in general and the way it played during the Amateur.  Firstly, it is not tricking up a golf course to set it up firm and fast through the green and with firm greens.  Secondly, it rained pretty hard before the finals and the greens did not play that way at all.  Merion is a club and course that understands its place in golf and the course is set up as it is supposed to play.  If anything, the rough is normally the great equalizer between the turtle and the hare.  For some reason the rough was not playing at all difficult.  I've seen it play harder on a regular basis dictating recovery shots to a much higher degree than seen during the Amateur.  I saw guys hitting 3 irons out of the rough on 18.  That is normally unheard of.  It could be that the rough was a bit too long (remember there was some serious wet weather around here for a long time preceding the tournament) and the grass was laying over from this and from trampelling by the crowds.

Merion remains an outstanding championship course.  Of all the competitors (was it 280 or something?) only a handful shot under par in qualifying and all were one under.  The distribution of yardage makes looking at the overall yardage less meaningful.  There are driver holes, but driver isn't the only club needed off of every tee.  All shots are required as is an excellent short game.  The course does test all kinds of shots and is not geared towards a select cross section of players, namely the long bomber.  It is a course where a greater range of players have a chance and thus a greater tournament results.  If you want to see a course design and setup that rewards a singularity of play (which is no strategy, really)  then Merion is not it.  But if you like a tournament which the whole field is in from the start (unlike US Open and Masters) then Merion is perfect for major tournament play.  It is a nearly perfect design.

As for the 18th, the green is unique and I can't understand why its general feature isn't duplicated.  The first half of the green slopes back to front and the back half of the green slopes front to back.  This means the approach shot has to be hit precisely and usually from long distance with the new back tees.

Shot testing, distance and conditioning are not the problems for Merion.  The course is very compact, making brilliant use of the 120 acres.  But there isn't much room for spectators.  The hospitality tents would have to be at the West Course which is about a mile away.  This wouldn't be bad with bus service along the closed Ardmore Ave, but it would have to stop before the crossing between one green and two tee.

[Brent Hutto]

A friend of mine attended the Amateur this year at Merion and just goes on and on about what a complete test it presented to the golfers. Unlike many of the big-time tournament venues nowadays Merion did not particularly reward the long bombers and no matter how long or short someone hit it the requirement was the same--to play the correct shot to the correct target on every single stroke. That's all you can ask of a championship setup.

My buddy has played in a PGA and a few Tour events and thought the Merion setup for the amateur was just about perfect. Then again he's a pretty good putter so maybe he just enjoyed seeing the Ams have to putt those greens.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I don't agree with you either, not even your take on the set-up and conditions of the greens during the US Amateur.

I spent the whole week over there and I didn't see balls ending up in the same places on the greens because of firmnness or speed and the greens were not particularly firm, nowhere near where they would have liked them to be. If the greens had been twice as firm as they were it would not have been over the top either for Merion.

Some of the longest amateurs did hit a lot of wedges but they certainly can't do that on all the holes and if they wanted to hit wedge on some they needed to take some considerable risk off the tee.

The scoring at Merion that would be representative in any way to a US Open there was the stroke play qualifying and not the match play portion. The stroke qualifying scores, both average and medalist were right about where we expected them to be, and that was with a fairly mild qualifying set-up, much milder than Merion's administration and maintenance department wanted to see. The USGA backed it off some simply to ensure getting the qualifiers around the course in daylight which was too close anyway. That Long John Hurley from Nebraska (the longest in the tournament) was off last and unfortunately played the last 2-3 holes in way too little light.

Merion the course can definitely still hold a US Open in my opinion. I firmly believe that for anyone (including the USGA, tour pros etc) to simply look at the lengths of the holes on that course and conclude that tour pros would hit 10 or 12 wedge approaches is really missing what Merion is all about. Theoretically they could hit 10-12 wedge approaches but if any golfer, US Amateur calibre or pro could hit 10-12 wedge approaches from the fairways of Merion then they definitely deserve to potentially shoot a good score below par. I say let any Tour pro see if he can get 10-12 drives in those fairways within wedge approach range if the course is set up firm and fast!

The bigger problem is Merion the club with its lack of space and infrastructure. And then there's Merion the membership---do the members want another Open or not? If the USGA offers Opens to golf clubs accepting one may not be automatic. All I can say is the sentiment within the club is very mixed---with some very much for another Open and some very much opposed. But those that run the club say if an Open is offered to them they feel the club would accept it.

In any case, if Merion is going to be offered another Open any time soon will be known one way or another within the month.

[Craig_Rokke]

I do not think the course was tricked up. I do not think the course is anywhere near a pushover--for anyone. I do hope they are offered an Open. I do hope they accept an offer. And I do hope I get to go see it!

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I think the USGA could have an Open at Merion if they wanted to, and it would be one of the most interesting Opens in years.

However, I do agree with your general point -- I wish the club would stop worrying about whether it can host the U.S. Open or not.  It's one of the great golf courses in America, regardless, and the only way they will screw that up is if they keep tinkering around trying to attract an Open.

[TEPaul]

Even if I probably know more than most about the various problems and considerations involved in bringing another US Open to Merion that have nothing to do with the golf course (and those problems and considerations are formidable) I must admit I will be very disappointed if the USGA doesn't at least make the offer next month---even admitting I certainly don't know all they need to consider.

I just think the USGA has so much more to gain if they make the offer, even if they do completely understand they may run the risk of totally exposing what technology has done in recent years. I feel if the USGA and Merion got lucky with the weather that golf course could really show us something very important about golf course architecture even at the premier player level.

And next, I look at Merion's US Open and US Amateur tournament history that goes so far back and continues right on up to 1981. Merion saw all the greatest players of every era of the 20th century take a shot at her and I just think it would be such a tragedy to deny Tiger Woods and his contemporary fellow competitors a shot at her in an Open too.

If the weather doesn't cooperate and the course is soft or even if the set-up is ideal and they crucify the old girl, then at that point we all have the right and the reason to say OK enough for this great old golf course. I just don't think that time has come yet. If the weather cooperated and they set Merion up ideally for an Open I think she could put on a helluva show even if it ended up being her last one.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping the USGA makes the offer next month. I just think, no matter what happens in another US Open there, they have a helluva lot less to lose by making the offer than not making it.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Don't know if you've seen Merion East recently but there really isn't any more tinkering they could do with the golf course at this point other than completely miss the boat on fairway width in another US Open. Of course that's more than a real possibility with the USGA's US Open fairway width mentality. But if they just leave the width exactly as it is now (some expanded and repositioned) and got an Open allowing an ideal firm and fast set-up it would be just so interesting for all kinds of reasons we bascially haven't experienced before. There's no way Merion can add any more length, that's for sure. The world's greatest thief could not find 50 more total yards anywhere on that golf course now. It's totally maxed everywhere. Hell, if I was setting it up for the US Open I might even slide the tee blocks forward a bit on #7, #8 and particularly #10 and tempt them even more into doing something really heroic or disasterous.  

[john_stiles]

Mark,

It is twenty thirteen I believe for the US Open if it all works out. It is almost complete and fingers can be uncrossed.

Narrow, firm, hard, tuck, move bunkers, and lengthen  is all you can do if the USGA will do nothing with the ball.  That has been done for how many years, at how many courses.   The USGA favors the tradition of keeping scores near par and that is about it.  And oddly enough,  the USGA would rather carve up the classics then go to the modern venues.

I would favor a rota of modern courses and those 'classics' committed to constantly lengthening and toughening their courses.

If you could just eliminate some of the classics that make changes, hoping to get the tournaments, it would be better in general.

[TEPaul]

John:

If one goes through the holes of Merion East there would be no reason to move bunkers and I'm certain that would never happen anyway. Frankly, if the USGA wants to influence scoring at Merion East they could do that a whole lot more effectively with long rough compared to moving any bunkers. Merion East will not be adding any tee length either for a future Open and the reason is there just ain't no more room anywhere. The place has been maxed.  

If they go there and the're fixated on influencing the winning score they'll do that at Merion by narrower fairways and higher rough.

You want to hear something ironic? It was either during the Open of '71 or '81 at Merion, and the club wanted to put a bunker in on the left side of the fairway on #14---a bunker William Flynn had proposed decades before. Well, when the USGA heard about that they told Merion: "If you touch a classic course like Merion like that we aren't bringing the Open there."  

[HamiltonBHearst]

"taking the driver out of a player's hands".  Often sited for many misguided changes to many of our classic courses.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sorry Mark,
I have to join in with the "cannot agree with you brigade"

Merion is a prime example of what we need more of for majors rather than less.
It is still a great course for any calibre of golfer..if you want to hit drivers everywhere..go for it and suffer the consequences should you miss the fairways...
One thing I think you should also take into consederation is the unusual weather the area had this year and how that affected the set up.
I play in the Hugh Wilson every year and from what I was told the rough for the amateur was not as severe as usual, which may have allowed for more risky driving than usual and hence more wedges...as for the firm greens..heaven forbid the best players in the world may have to think about that prior to hitting their approach shots...we cetainly would not want them to have to work that hard would we?
Mr Hearst....what are you trying to say?
Do you subscribe to the tour policy that hit driver everywhere and dont worry about accuracy? Surely not if you are a serious member of this site...what could possibly be wrong with asking the players to hit the fairway off the tee...even if that means hitting a club other than driver..that is what fairways are for, to give you the best chance of hitting the shot you desire into the green...miss the fairway and you should be punished for doing so.
Every player I have spoken to who played in the Amateur, to a man..has said it was the finest course set up they have ever played in an amateur, and cannot understane why it does not still hold the open...spectator space excluded..

[Joe Hancock]

John:

If one goes through the holes of Merion East there would be no reason to move bunkers and I'm certain that would never happen anyway.

I agree, but would do you think the result would be of fairways being moved...specifically, wider. More specifically, # 2 and #18 for starters?

What would it take to make Merion the best it could possibly be?

Joe

[Brent Hutto]

I think the greens at Merion this year made the best amateurs in the country play the game I play every weekend on my home course. Miss a green in the wrong sport and you make double-bogey more likely than par.

Most of the courses in the world can do that to me but it takes a pretty special course and setup to do that to the top players on something like sixteen out of eighteen holes. I'd rather see an Open played under those conditions than on some 7,600 yard monster that forces players to hit a few approach shots with 4-irons or whatever to mundane green complexes.

[john_stiles]

I would favor the US Open going more to the modern monsters (7600 yd) rather than struggling with narrow, chop out rough and sometimes marginal green conditioning.  This  might also save a few more classics from even more changes.

A narrow, chop out of the rough, setup eliminates all of the shots everyone faces from less than the ideal fairway conditioning.  Firm, hard greens seems satisfactory but the constant chop out shot is another thing entirely.

Why make the rough a certain chop out shot ?



TEP,

I was speaking of US Open course work in general, not with respect to current Merion.   It seemingly passed the 2005 US Am test with flying colors in current setup of narrow, hard, and firm, maxed lengthening, and would expect few changes as you say.

2013,
John

[Mark Brown]

Gentleman,

I stand corrected. A lot of you were at the Amateur and saw the whole course. What I gleaned was from limited tv watching. So I yield to the floor and thank you for the comments. I've only played it once and it is a wonderful course that I need to get back to.

I do, however, hope the USGA, R&A and the ball manufacturers can agree on a new ball, which from what they say would decrease the length of Tour players at least 20 yards off the tee, but the average golfer would only lose 5 to 10 yards.

[Dan Boerger]

Long time lurker, new member here. I've certainly learned much lurking the past couple of years and I apologize if I state something that's already been discussed ad naseum.

I don't think Merion will have trouble standing up to the professionals. Long alone won't get it done, long and straight will be required. The short par 4's (7/8/10 to be specific) will likely best be conquered with an long iron/iron shot. The penalty for missing the fairway (if the way they generally keep the rough is any indication) will be too severe. (I've played Merion numerous times and in different seasons ... and the May/June rough is extremely severe.)

I also admit to being somewhat unclear with the USGA's preoccupation with par on US open courses. Medal play assures the low score wins, no bonuses for being over/under par. I don't have any problem with pros shooting under par. That's what makes them so special, IMO.

I think Merion's biggest challenge will be logistics. Even at the US Am, much of the rough was trampled down by the spectators. Look for lots of grandstands and limited crowds. All this said, I sincerely hope they get it.

[AndrewB]

What's so good about taking the driver of play and have putting determine the winner. What about mid and long irons into the greens rather than wedges?

Let's not forget that there are some pretty long holes at Merion too .. the driver is not taken out of one's hand everywhere.  In the US Amateur, 5, 6, and 18 played 504 yds, 487 yds, and 505 yds respectively as par fours.  I know I'd hit driver on the par fives, 2 and 4, at 556 (uphill) and 597 as well.

I also saw a number of players hit driver on holes like 12 (403) and 14 (438), and even a few on shorter holes like 7 (345) and 10 (303) when going for the green.

17's no slouch at 246, either.

I think the pros would hit a handful of drivers and mid/long-irons, though not as much as at the longer courses.  But, I also believe we'd see them having to think more and play more intelligently than at these other courses.