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Bill Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
I love Wayne's idea of Dornoch for the Open Championship. With the TV money why is it necessary to insist on parking etc.?
Another question come to mind. Does the fact a course has a regular tour event preclude it hosting and Open or PGA? I'm thinking of Muirfield Village Golf Club where the cream seems always to rise. I would love to see the rough grown and an Open there. What would Jack think?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
The only one that comes to mind...and it has been discussed here before, is Cog Hill. If there ever was an award for a course trying the hardest to get a major, this would be the hands down winner.
H.P.S.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cuscowilla.

Move two or three tees back (there is plenty of room), get the greens hard and that's about it. There's space for tents, lots of housing available and it's only 75 miles from both ATL and Augusta. It would be a terrific venue.


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another question come to mind. Does the fact a course has a regular tour event preclude it hosting and Open or PGA? I'm thinking of Muirfield Village Golf Club where the cream seems always to rise. I would love to see the rough grown and an Open there. What would Jack think?
That hasn't stopped Riviera, Pebble Beach or Torrey Pines from hosting majors.  If I remember correctly, the LA Open was held at a course other than Riviera when they held a major (it may have been the Senior Open rather than one of the regular majors).

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wonder what the Tour guys would think of HVCC if it were to host a major. Looking at some of the old pictures and drawings Wayne has, it appears the fairways were designed to be 50 or 60 yards in width. For the standard reasons of time they are now 30 to 40 yards wide. This is a deceptively narrow figure due to the terrain and maintenance practice (very hilly and as firm as nature will allow) and I can only imagine the recommendations from a tournament committee doing the prep work. HVCC fairway widths at 25 to 30 yards and firm with substantial rough, and firm fast greens would cause fits for those guys, and cries of an unfair setup would be heard all over the place so I would recommend the course be set up (assuming we can control the firmness of course   :P) with wide fairways and short rough near them and leave the grain in the greens and the bunker rakes off of the golf course during play. The winning score would be low, but the median and high scores would not be.

As far as other courses worthy of consideration, I guess you have to go with one of the new ones, and I agree with everything Pat Mucci has said about wind and windy sites, other than Bandon where else has the course and the wind? I believe the Bandon facility has the US Am or Mid-Am in the next 5 or 7 years so that'll be interesting.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
JES II

Why hasn't HVCC gone after a Mid Am or US Am?



Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cuscowilla, Pacific Dunes, SFGC, Spyglass, LACC North all would be great venues which for whatever reason will or likely will not.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I really don't think the club has all that much interest in increasing its national exposure through that route. They donate a pretty good amount of time to hosting GAP and Pennsylvania events virtually every year (and enjoy doing that), and if I, or someone else, put together a real concerted effort to host an event of that stature we could probably get some traction but as of now nobody has had that interest. One concern would probably be the process of hosting an intermediate event or two for the USGA (like a junior or senior am, mens or womens) and that is also probably a negative factor. This is all speculation as I've not yet gotten involved in the politics up there, but I do talk to many people about the club's motivations.


Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rick,


The other problem with the wind is ..... green speeds.

You can't get them U.S. Open fast.

Patrick

This comment intrigues me.  Could you elaborate further?

Ciao

Sean


   I believe what Pat is referring to concerns the fairness of the greens - you wouldn't want another debacle similar to Shinnecock's 7th in 2004.

The greens at Sand Hills run at lightening speeds. Get a day when the wind is up in  US Open conditions and the tournament would have to be postponed.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
We try this exercise from time to time with potential additions to the [British] Open Championship roster and there really isn't anywhere with the course and infrastructure, except possibly Kingsbarns.  'Deal', I hear some of you say, but it has sniffed a major in the past.  There may be a composite course worth pursuing at Saunton, but the travel, transport and hotel situation could not cope.  Some have shouted for Royal Porthcawl, but there just isn't the room and you cannot really make the course long enough.  Could Dornoch be stretched to something about 7,000 yards?  Royal County Down has the stature but they don't want the Open and Newcastle couldn't cope with the numbers.  There is no great pressure to remove any of the current host courses and with Turnberry restored to the list there is plenty of choice, so the idea of playing the Open at Portmarnock or Falsterbo probably is not in their minds at the moment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 11:55:49 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »

ForkaB

Kingbsbarns is easily good enough for an Open, but it will never get one as long as the Old Course is nearby.

If it really were "The Open", and not the "British Open", Portmarnock would have been on the rota long, long ago.....

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Ocean Course. Full stop.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Ocean Course. Full stop.

2012 PGA Championship site, so we'll get to see.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another question come to mind. Does the fact a course has a regular tour event preclude it hosting and Open or PGA? I'm thinking of Muirfield Village Golf Club where the cream seems always to rise. I would love to see the rough grown and an Open there. What would Jack think?
That hasn't stopped Riviera, Pebble Beach or Torrey Pines from hosting majors.  If I remember correctly, the LA Open was held at a course other than Riviera when they held a major (it may have been the Senior Open rather than one of the regular majors).

Wayne -- Justin Leonard won his U.S. Amateur title at Muirfield Village. I wonder why the USGA hasn't gone back there -- the course produced a worthy champion and a very good tournament, if memory serves.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know Stanwich has hosted the Mid-Am, but I've heard it's a great, tough track, worthy of a major.  We deserve one in Connecticut, now that 'Ol Finchy has all-but castrated the Greater Hartford Open (Buick can stick it where the Sun don't shine).  It would be awesome to see one at Yale, although I don't see how par could be defended fairly there.  A Women's Open is richly deserved there, in my estimation.  I know it sounds tacky, but if they spruced up my home course of Hop Meadow CC (a few million from the tour put into removing some trees, deepening and adding and enlarging bunkers, et cetera et cetera)...hey, a guy can dream, can't he? ;D

The problem with having a major at some of the great courses that have been suggested is that the tree removal that would be necessary to accomadate the crowds would compromise the character of the course.  Or, the design of the course is naturally un-conducive to huge crowds.  This is the case at a place like Pine Valley.  The Tour wouldn't make much money, even though it would be the most awesome golf event to see, possibly ever (I don't know whether or not the PVGC membership would want it anyway)  

Or, in the case of Sand Hills, it's out in East Jebip, Nowheresville.  As fun as it would be to see, where would the thousands of fans stay?  It might turn into golf's version of Woodstock for those nights.

This is where I think Shell's Wonderful World of Golf should start making a comeback.  Let the public see the courses they would not normally see (such as Cherokee Plantation, Carnegie Abbey, Pine Valley, perhaps a Cypress Point, et cetera)!  I find SWWoG fascinating, and I would love to see it make a return.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
D'oh!

2 yrs ago, Joe Passov wrote an article in Golf Magazine citing 9 Courses that he'd like to see host the PGA. They were

Crystal Downs
Cypress
Grand National (Links)
Merion
Montauk Downs
Pac Dunes
Sand Hills
Shadow Creek
Trump National (nee Ocean Trails)

It has long been my opinion that, in order to distinguish itself from the US Open, the PGA should make a habit of awarding its championship to post-WWII courses. That way the US Open can highlight the best of the classics, while the PGA can challenge pros on the best (hopefully) of the moderns.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 06:52:25 PM by SPDB »

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wolf  Run- Smyers      mens am

Harvester- Foster      womens open

Brookside-  Ross  Curtis cup

Wakonda- Langford  Womens open

Lawsonia- langford   womens am

Colorado Golf club    Coore&Crenshaw   mens am


Mike_Cirba

Mark Chalfant,

Tell me about Harvester.

I periodically get to Sioux Falls, SD on business and Harvester is about a 4-5 hour drive each way.

Knowing my particular form of golf course insanity, tell me why a guy who loves classic courses should risk life and limb taking that hypnotic drive across the plains?

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Harvester by Keith Foster in Rhodes, IA..."real" prairie links style of setting...holes take advantage of all wind directions, pretty firm and fast, tons 'o strategy out there, several good par-and-a-half holes, very large greens with good internal contours which could make for some very interesting hole locations, plenty of ground game options due to green complex construction, land has plenty of gentle movement.

All I could think of off the top of my head.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Jfaspen

Crystal Downs--US Am
PGA if the weather was right.

Mike_Cirba

The Harvester by Keith Foster in Rhodes, IA..."real" prairie links style of setting...holes take advantage of all wind directions, pretty firm and fast, tons 'o strategy out there, several good par-and-a-half holes, very large greens with good internal contours which could make for some very interesting hole locations, plenty of ground game options due to green complex construction, land has plenty of gentle movement.

All I could think of off the top of my head.

Evan,

Yes, I love the idea of "prairie links", but then I go to the website and it looks as though large water hazards are the primary feature.  What am I missing?

Paul Payne

Mike,

Harvester is a terriffic course. The large water is really only in play on 9 and 18. Both are tough holes but EVERY hole on that course can stand on its own.

Foster used the rolling hills perfectly to set up shots that you must work slightly right or left while rolling slightly up or downhill. Nothing exagerated, just great angles.

There are a few creeks and ponds here and there. One pond challenging a long second or short third shot onto the green on a rolercoaster downhill par 5. This would make a great risk reward second shot setup.  

One of my favorite hoes #7 seems rather bland from the start. A mild bend to the right with a bunker at the bend, and an uphill shot to the green. It even has a bank to the left of the fairway to keep the ball in play. What you discover is a vicious false front on the uphill green. This means you need to take at least two extra clubs to stick the green. Then only to discover that the green rolls off to the back and right into collection areas for the shot that was too strong. Lastly if you cut off the corner on the drive or use the bank too agressively, you will be on the right side of the fairway which because of the angles leaves a horrible approach.

What also makes this course are the greens. They are undulating and roll VERY true. They are well suited for multiple challenging pin placements. They roll them almost daily during the summer so they are some of the best you will find on a public course.

Should I say that I love this underrated beauty!


Mike_Cirba

Thanks, Evan & Paul,

I've wanted to get out there and you're starting to tempt me.  I've mostly liked the Keith Foster courses I've played and really would like to better understand if this one is as good as all that (presently #55 on the Golfweek Modern listing).  

Would anyone care to offer a "Doak Scale" number for Harvester?

Paul Payne

Mike,

The Harvester made me a true Foster fan. I had read a lot about him when he reworked Southern Hills a while back.

The only other course I've played so far is the Tennessean near Paris TN. It is another wonderful course but I'd say Harvester is superior. If you want to see Foster doing some of his best I'd recommend you make the trip to IA.

Check out their web site, they have great stay and play packages in the spring. Usually a room in a condo and unlimited golf for two days for about $180. Can't beat that. Be prepared to play however because you will literally play golf, eat, and sleep at the course. Rhodes IA is a bit like Mullen.


Paul Payne

BTW,

I humbly request a brief education on how to use the "Doak Scale".

(genuflecting)