Rowlinson's Test: 1 -18, 18 different architects

[T_MacWood]

New Zealand is Mure Ferguson and Simpson
Aldeburgh is Park II, Colt and Taylor
Pannal is Herd, C.MacKenzie and G.Campbell
Gleneagles is Braid and Hutchison
Addington Colt and Abercromby
Woodhall Spa Colt and Hotchkin
Deal is Hunter, Hutchison, G.Campbell, Alison and Morrison.

Didn't Fowler redesign the 18th at Pebble Beach?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom MacW

I knew it would be you who would pull me to pieces.  That is why I put in caveats at every possible stage.

Now, taking the framework I gave you, sort out the mess, please.

Mark.

[JNC Lyon]

Tony Chapman:
I was doing my own list, and I thought I would include a hole from Charleston Muni, but I picked seven instead of nine.  Why did you pick nine?  I thought it was a standard long four, while seven had a highly original greensite, and more "Raynoresque"

My list:
1) Ontario, 586, Par 5 (Swatt/Cornish)
2) Ravenwood, 310, Par 4 (Nelson)
3) Terry Hills, 122, Par 3 (Ault?)
4) Brockport, 270, Par 4 (Passo)
5) Cobblestone Creek, 330, Par 4 (Hurdzan)
6) CC of Buffalo, 176, Par 3 (Ross)
7) Charleston Muni, 507, Par 5 (Raynor or McAdams)
St. George's, 220, Par 3 (Thompson)
9) Durand Eastman, 435, Par 5 (RTJ)

10) Park Club, 195, Par 3 (Alison)
11) Oak Hollow, 437, Par 4 (Dye)
12) Winston Lake, 210, Par 3 (Maples)
13) Dartmouth, 350, Par 4 (Prichard)
14) Mill Creek, 464, Par 4 (Albanese)
15) Canterbury Woods, 560, Par 5 (Forbes)
16) Deerfield, 450, Par 4 (Craig)
17) Camp Creek, 540, Par 5 (Fazio)
18) The Country Club, 435, Par 4 (Campbell, Flynn, Jones)

[Tony_Chapman]

JNC - It was a tough call to do that, mostly because the 7th at Charleston Muni was my favorite hole on the golf course. But, the 9th in strong enough (certainly the best par-4 on the course) and that allowed me to include the 7th at Firethorn by Pete Dye.

Really, it was three holes at Charleston I was considering along with the 7th and that was 4 (love the false front) and 9. 14 (a short, I think) was probably the most unique on the back side.

[mark chalfant]

Ian:
These are some that come to mind:


1. Kingsley 597 - DeVries      
2. Prairie Dunes 160- Maxwell        
3. Royal Dornoch 418-  Morris &  Sutherland
4  Toronto- 189  Colt
5  White Bear Yacht 446-Ross
6  Michigan 309-  Mackenzie
7  Kawana 352- Alison
8  Longmeadow- 447 Ross&Hatch
9   CC of Troy- 425 Travis            


10  Huntington 446- Emmet& Tull
11  Blackwolf River 560- Dye  
12  Hyde  Park 225- Bendelow  
13  Lawsonia-  Langford  
14  Moraine 451- Nipper Campbell
15  French Creek 302-Gil Hanse      
16 Desert Forest 534- Red Lawrence
17 Paraparamu- Alex  Russell
18 St. Enodoc 437- James Braid


Franklin  Hills 9-  Ross
NCR -Wilson  3,10
The Hague - Colt 15
Morfontaine - Smpson 2,3
Old Town- Maxwell  7,9
Philadelphia- Flynn 3,5
       
   

[wsmorrison]

All right, Mark.  That's the last time I take you to a Flynn course  

You couldn't think of one Flynn hole to put on the list.  Shame on you  

Now if you had to include one Flynn, what would it be?

[mark chalfant]

Wayne pardon my oversight,but Mayday and Tom Paul told me that Max Behr did all the best designs in the Quaker City.I believe these are very worthy:

Rolling Green  9, 14
Philadelphia CC  3,5 and maybe 16
CC   Cleveland  17
Shinnecock  16
HVCC   #18 is superb but it is in the best 500 book already, nine and 11 at HV are favorites of mine, but if preessed i would take Cleveland's 17th or Rolling Green's 9th as my Flynn selection

[wsmorrison]

When Mayday thinks of Max Behr, he thinks of the Beverly Hillbillies.  Thanks for an insight into your favorite Flynns.  All is forgiven  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom MacW

You've not helped me - yet.

Let's start again.

Suppose we list the UK's (OK, Ireland was part of it, but we'll leave it out for the moment) most significant architects of the so-called Golden Age, how many pure, single-architect courses survive?  In no particular order, try this list (and I don't pretend it's the defining list, merely somewhere from which to start):

1. MacKenzie
2. Colt
3. Park
4. Abercromby
5. Braid
6. Hotchkin
7. Vardon
8. Morris
9. Fowler
10. Simpson
11. Hutchison
12. Taylor
13. Alison
14. Morrison
15. Croome
16. Coombe
17. Ray
18. The one-offs, such as Tyack and Scott

To how many of these (or other) architects can we attribute a hole worthy of consideration for this exercise that is their handiwork alone?  As this is a totally academic exercise, let's get it right.

Over to you Tom MacW.

[T_MacWood]

I'll see what I can come up with.

[T_MacWood]

1. Royal Melbourne-East 333 (Russell)
2. Mayfield 335 (Barker)
3. NGLA 426 (Macdonald)
4. Swinley Forest 185 (Colt)
5. Bethpage-Black 438 (Tillinghast)
6. West Sussex 250 (Hutchison, Campbell & Hotchkin)
7. Cape Breton 556 (Thompson)
8. Morfontaine 420 (Simpson)
9. Yale 213 (Raynor)

10. Riviera 310 (Thomas)
11. Shinnecock 158 (Flynn)
12. Hollywood 447 (Travis)
13. ANGC 485 (MacKenzie)
14. Maidstone 130 (Park)
15. Kawana 470 (Alison)
16. Engineers 365 (Strong)
17. Walton Heath 470 (Fowler)
18. Seminole 417 (Ross)

I cheated with the 17th at WH, the course was reconfigured and it is now the 16th...I also used its original length, the same with the 6th at West Sussex.

[TEPaul]

These seem to be very impressive, even though I'm not all that sure what the technical criteria is. Even if I had a photographic memory and had seen every hole in the world I'd have a hard time doing something like this. Maybe it's my whole ranking bugaboo but I just have a hard time understanding why anyone would even want to do lists like these. It's interesting thinking about a lot of good holes from all over the place but I just can't help thinking of these lists as single 18 hole courses of all these diverse but great components. I think if it were possible and I actually could play these lists as single courses I'd become completely architecturally schizophrenic.

As a minor addendum I should point out that all you list geniuses totally blew the most obvious selection that should've been on every single list as the 8th hole----Tommy Birdsong's ultra-glorious #8 at Fernandina Beach Municipal.

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

The idea is based upon the World Atlas of Golf's original list of the 18 best holes. The start was the idea of improving the list by updating it. the next question became could you improve upon it by keeping it to 18 architects for diversity.

Where it helps, is it makes you think about a lot of great holes, and therein lies the fun, the rest is just another list.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom MacWood:

That, too, is a cool list.

The only hole I haven't seen on your 18 is the second at Mayfield.  Can you describe it or provide a photo?  Does it really belong in this company?

I've been too busy in the office this week to work on my own eclectic, but I will try when I have a day off on Thursday.

[T_MacWood]

The second at Mayfield is one unusual hole. The tee sits in a little clearing or shoot in the trees (on a shelf above the 1st green) immediately in front of the tee the ground rises abruptly, very steep. The tee shot gives you the sensation of shooting over a two or three story building...a steep hillside stairing at you, right smack in front of the tee...totally blind and you better be able to get your tee shot up fast.

At the crest of this ridge (maybe 130 to 150 yards out) the ground tumbles down the otherside to the green (very undulating ground...National-esque) there is small flat in the fairway...I belive it is to the right...other that there isn't flat inch in the entire fairway. The green sits below, at the base of an opposing hillside, across a little hollow. Four bunkers guard the front and side of the green. If I recall correctly the green his heavily sloped as well. A wild hole...one of a kind.

Barker was from Yorkshire, I suspect he was smoking the same thing MacKenzie was smoking. He was also the pro at GCGC and architectural prodigee of Travis...he was probably smoking some of his black cigars too.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Judging from Mark Rowlinson's post #24 criteria, you should probably take out your #18 (Ross, Seminole). You know what C.B. said about the green being the "head" of the hole. #18 Seminole's green is Dick Wilson. The original Ross green was maybe 20-30 yards to the right of the present one.

[mark chalfant]

Tom  Doak:
Mayfields second belongs. The course has remarkable
topography as well as excellent use of a winding stream on
4 holes

[T_MacWood]

TE
I've heard the rumor too...why don't you check into it. There is also one about Wilson designing Shinnecock.

[mark chalfant]

Tom M,the second green is quirky and fun.Nine (437) and Eleven(520) at Mayfield  are among the best Ive seen  in the US

Tom D. :  Mayfield's terrain reminds me some of Wakonda, but
above all,  it evokes aspects of White Bear Yacht

[Tom_Doak]

Ooh.  Mayfield just went into my top 5 courses I need to see.

[TEPaul]

"TE
I've heard the rumor too...why don't you check into it. There is also one about Wilson designing Shinnecock."

Tom MacW:

There used to be a rumor about Dick Wilson designing Shinnecock (started by Dick Wilson in the 1950s) but there's no rumor about that anymore.

Seminole's 18th green being Dick Wilson? I don't think that's a rumor, there's little question of it. Some, such as Pete Dye feel Wilson did a lot at Seminole, such as moving the 18th and the 3rd green too and a lot of bunkering change, green remodeling but I've just never really bought that. But #18 is pretty clear. Have you ever seen the Ross Seminole drawing? The 18th is at least 20-30 yards to the right just about where the practice green is. The practice green may even be a vestige of the old 18th green. The original 18th tee wasn't where it is now either. It was on the other side of #17 green.

Are you saying you don't believe the 18th green is D. Wilson?  Do you think the present green is Ross's original 18th green?

[T_MacWood]

TD
I don't think you'll be disapointed, Mayfield is a fascinating example of early American golf architecture. A very interesting site and routing too. When they built the course the club's moto was 'Beat Myopia'...the perception being Myopia was the best course in the country.

The hardest part of the excercise is finding holes that really are pure versions of a single architect or a well know group (as pure as possible anyway)....and is representative of their work. Technically the 13th green has been changed a few times and Rees Jones unfortunately has laid his hands on Travis and Tillinghast.

[Tom_Doak]

OK, Ian, here's my first attempt.  I made myself stay away from any of the holes you or Tom MacWood chose.  (You stole a bunch of holes I would have liked to use, but that's what I get for waiting to go third.)  I have NOT tried hard to include the ten best architects of all time, so please don't anyone fault me for that; I can substitute later if you insist.

I kept it to deceased architects just because I thought it a very touchy subject whether any modern designer's work belongs in the pantheon with the old guys.  We should really do an entirely separate course for architects post-1960, that would be fun although I would require some help.

1st - St. Enodoc 518 - James Braid
2nd - St. George's 433 - Stanley Thompson
3rd - Woking 415 - John Low and Stuart Paton
4th - Myopia Hunt Club 396 - H.C. Leeds
5th - Royal Worlington & Newmarket 165 - not sure if H.S. Colt?
6th - National Golf Links 135 - C.B. Macdonald
7th - Crystal Downs 335 - Alister MacKenzie
8th - Prairie Dunes 425 - Perry Maxwell
9th - Maidstone 420 - Willie Park Jr.

10th - Pinehurst No. 2 596 - Donald Ross
11th - Belvedere 391 - Willie Watson
12th - San Francisco GC 427 - A.W. Tillinghast
13th - North Berwick 347 - David Strath
14th - St. Andrews 618 - ?
15th - Woodlands, Australia 555 - Rowley Banks / S. Bennett
16th - Royal Melbourne (East) 165 - Alex Russell
17th - Ballybunion Old 380 - Tom Simpson?
18th - Riviera 447 - George Thomas

I know the balance is a bit weird, especially the back nine at 3800+ yards.  I'm just being lazy.

Some holes from different architects I thought about hard:

Crump - Pine Valley 13
Hotchkin - Durban 3
Flynn - Kittansett 3
Thomas - Riviera 4, 9, 15; Bel Air 10
Russell - Yarra Yarra 5, 11
C.K. Hutchison - West Sussex 6
Apperly - New South Wales 6
A. Simpson - Murcar 7
J.D. Dunn - Ekwanok 7
H. Hutchinson - Royal West Norfolk 8
Ross - Whitinsville 9
Abercromby - Addington 13
Langford - Harrison Hills 14

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

You have Seminole's 18th hole in your list and it is a very fine hole with a very fine green. Who do you think the present green should be attributed to---D. Ross or D. Wilson?

[T_MacWood]

One of four people: Donald Ross, T. Claiborn Watson, Chris Dunphy or Dick Wilson.