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Patrick_Mucci

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2002, 02:03:50 PM »
TEPaul,

AWT referred to "wooded areas" which I feel is vastly different from the planting of a few trees to create an effect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2002, 02:07:58 PM »
Doug:

Well, I don't know about that--how stupid those trees wer-- but I do know that it's always a good idea to act the part of a kid again, regardless of how old you are.

If I have some free time on some upcoming Saturday mornings I'm getting back into watching cartoons again--that is the old time cartoons that I'm familiar with. It's amazing the fundamental wisdom that can be found in cartoons!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2002, 02:10:13 PM »
TE,

Totally agree. It's why I keep having kids even at this advanced age!  :) Looking at the world through the eyes of a child is a real delight.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2002, 02:11:24 PM »
Pat:

Now for God's sake try to get your FACTS straight! Did I ever, EVER, say a single word about planting trees?? All I've ever mentioned is the USE of trees in architecture! There's no need at all for you to go jumping to conclusions!

And anyway, all I'm trying to do here is cite the writing and thinking of some of the best of the older architects so we all might have a clearer idea about what they really thought of all things to do with architecture!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2002, 02:25:18 PM »
And furthermore Pat, we may show on here (or maybe we'll wait for the book to be written) some of Flynn's thinking on the use of trees in golf architecture! He did have all kinds of ideas on how to use them in various ways and for various purposes but so far little evidence of using them strategically in golf, EXCEPT when he found them already existing on various sites preconstruction!

So far Huntingdon Valley, C.C. of Cleveland and probably some others are evidence of that.

The reason I'm citing this writing and other evidence from some of the best of the old architects is because I do realize there are some on here that are prepared to argue with anyone who advocates the use of trees on golf courses or at least the use of trees in strategy in golf.

And I feel it would be better for those people not to argue with me but to argue with some of the older architects who clearly have enough time in with their products to have garnered a great deal of respect, in many cases.

That's why I want to see those people who appear to advocate no trees in golf argue with those classic architects and certainly not with me!

It's all part of my new campaign to try to portray things (by finding documentary evidence) to prove some of the realities of the way things once were instead of us today glorifying certain things that may never have actually been the way we sometimes think they were.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2002, 03:01:26 PM »

Quote
Pat:

And anyway, all I'm trying to do here is cite the writing and thinking of some of the best of the older architects

Tom,

Is that a nice PC way of saying dead?

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2002, 03:43:19 PM »
TEPaul,

An examination of the property pre-golf course can usually provide an inclination as to how and why the golf course was designed the way it was.

In many instances, the land had to be cleared of trees, in other situations, the wooded areas were utilized.

The architectural reliance on a single tree is only a lightning bolt away from extinction, therefore I tend to believe that for stability and posterity, dense wooded areas had to exist to make the feature permanent.

But, that's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2002, 06:55:25 PM »
Tom Paul:

Stupid and Valid (proper nouns BTW - please capitalize) refer to the intellect of those who placed them where they are and/or permit them to exist where they are.  Those terms do not refer to the intellect of the trees themselves.

The pedigree of the perpetrator does not alter my dislike of the genre.

To paraphrase both Joyce Kilmer and (I believe) Charlie Yates:

I thought that I would never see
A Stupid Tree at Pine Valley.
But there on 7 and 15 all,
There are 2 trees that ought to fall!

Do you know where they are, Esteemed Doyen?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2002, 07:38:18 PM »
Chip & Pat;

Oosh--OK, question and/or deny the obvious! Ultimately you two can discuss, argue and possibly disagree with Albert Tillinghast--not me!

Steve Curry:

I'm not trying to be PC by saying "old" or "older"--that was definitely my mistake--they're all definitely DEAD!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2002, 07:42:32 PM »
Tom and Pat:

Can't we all just get along? ??? ??? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

HW

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2002, 08:40:01 PM »
Again TEPaul comes through with the the sane approach.

While in semi jest, I don't see how the Stephen Curry's and Paul Richard's of the GCA world know that the trees in Rich Goodman's post were indeed stupid--Or that they were on their way to growing more stupid.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2002, 06:31:32 AM »
"believe the 15-feet conifers were chopped down overnight by golfers unable to get a clear shot at the green on the ninth hole."

HW,

Now, I am assuming, but I would make a fairly large wager that these "15 FOOT CONIFERS" had to either be directly in the line of the hole or damn close to the green if people were not getting a clear shot.  Maybe I going too far but it almost sounds as though a short 3 par was fronted by the useless trees to make the hole "resist par".  A 15 foot conifer is a nice Christmas Tree, nothing more nothing less.  They certainly don't belong anywhere near a green.  It would be nice to see pictures, to be sure.  But I am confident they were Stupid!

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

HW

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2002, 09:44:39 AM »
Steve:

I envisioned the trees being at the inside elbow of a dog leg.  Are they stupid now?

HW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2002, 02:12:50 PM »
Paul Richards:

We've mentioned it a number of times but Pat and I get along just fine. What we say to each other on here has nothing to do with that.

But for the purposes of this thread Pat and Chip need to address not my thoughts but the thoughts on the uses of trees quoted on here from A.W. Tillinghast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2002, 08:37:56 PM »
redanman:

I guess I should ask you what you think a dogleg is if you're really asking what the effect of trees should be on the inside (elbow) of a dogleg.

Have you got the Tillinghast book "A course Beautiful"? If so just read chapter 16 that talks about doglegs and trees, it explains it very nicely.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2002, 05:27:51 AM »
"the trees, which block a clear tee shot at the hole"

This made me asume it was a 3 par.

And to your question yes, they are stupid even as a dog leg, because a dog leg should more than a couple of cheezy conifers.

Steve

Quote
Steve:

I envisioned the trees being at the inside elbow of a dog leg.  Are they stupid now?

HW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2002, 06:08:20 AM »
Dogleg or straight-away hole - all trees need to be far enough back from the fairway and/or green so as to not impede the "straight ball" FROM THE FAIRWAY.  From non-fairway areas, all bets are off and the player gets what he/she deserves.

Tom Paul:

Since we are talking my personal BIAS here rather than FACTS, I would welcome the opportunity to debate this whole Stupid/Valid Tree issue with Messrs. Tillinghast, Ross, et al.  Given their current domicile relative to mine, I can only hope to defer that conversation for a good many years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2002, 06:31:21 AM »
Chipoat
"Dogleg or straight-away hole - all trees need to be far enough back from the fairway and/or green so as to not impede the "straight ball" FROM THE FAIRWAY."

Why? Does the same rule apply to sand hazards? Large hillocks and dunes? If not, why not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2002, 06:39:56 AM »
redanman
"I don't think missing the fairway should preclude very creative skillful recovery shots (See: Harbour Town)."

Which is a worse hazard - trees or water?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2002, 06:44:22 AM »
redanman
There are dunes and hillocks on many famous courses that are as tall as many trees - Ekwanock, Prestwick, St.Enodoc, R.St.Georges, Cape Breton, Pebble Beach, Yale, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2002, 08:47:49 AM »
redanman:

Your comprehensive explanation of a canine's anatomy and flexion is very interesting as is your mention of; "It's the effect of the magnitude of the third dimension, the "Z" axis, that changes the effect", (whatever all that exactly means). But certainly Tillinghast's ideas and explanations on the use of trees to form and create a "dogleg" golf hole appear to be a bit more straightforward and easier to understand!

To Tillinghast a dogleg hole was simply the formation of some feature, in the example he used--the use of trees one could not hit over ("If it be impossible to carry over this obstruction..."), on one side or another, but on a single dogleg the same side as the hole's curving direction (or in Tillinghast's words 'twisting").

Tillinghast also said; "The trees are permitted to remain along the side for such a distance as may be considered proper for a well-hit shot to exceed."

Do you see what he says there? "......for a well hit shot to exceed."

Presumably that means if a shot is not well enough hit either in distance or direction then it hasn't "exceeded" that dogleg feature (often trees) and therefore there should be no necessary reason for the golfer on his next shot to have a direct or clear shot at a green!

And this is further enunciated by him when he said that a shot that "exceeds" (negotiates) the dogleg would then create a next shot that has the green opened up to it!

"Under normal conditions, a player should be required to drive at least two hundred yards before the barrier to his second shot is removed."

Do you see what he says there? "....barrier to his second shot is removed."

That's all pretty clear stuff.

But what he doesn't say exactly, probably because the implication of it is so clear, as well as the clarity of it in his drawings, that if a golfer does NOT CHOOSE to drive the ball down the inside direction of a dogleg, he can choose to drive it to the outside, presumably opening up the angle to the green somewhat but consequently leaving himself a longer but nevertheless direct shot at the green.

And Redanman and Chip, anyone can see by looking at any of Tillinghast's drawings (as well as those of many other architects), as well as understanding the ideal example he gives--ie, Pine Valley's #1, that it's more than possible to put the ball in the fairway and still to have NOT 'exceeded' or negotiated the dogleg (for a direct second shot to the green).

I realize neither of you like trees on golf courses that come into play in any way, but either disagree with Tillinghast's ideas on the concept of the dogleg or agree with it. Please don't attempt to take his relatively simple explanations and complicate it into something that isn't understandable!

And very definitely dogleg holes are holes containing playable options--you either try to "exceed" the dogleg (get past it) with a longer accurate shot down the inside of of the dogleg  or you choose a shorter shot to the outside of of the dogleg creating a longer second shot (with a direct approach to the green)!

And Tillinghast said nothing about using holes like this constantly! He said they're useful occasionally to create "variety" in design. So in the context of Tillinghast's ideas, explanations and uses of dogleg holes I don't know why you mention "beating one drum too loudly."

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2002, 03:49:24 PM »
Tom Paul:

At the risk of sounding like Patrick, I NEVER said I don't like trees on golf courses that come into play at any time.  Even Doyens should READ BEFORE THEY WRITE and be sure of their FACTS....... oh never mind.

Tom MacWood:

A reasonable point - I'll get back on that when I have time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2002, 03:56:23 PM »
redanman:

I am eager to learn, and so should you be. We all should be. And A.W. Tillinghast, as evidenced by his writing that's been quoted, is not a bad person to learn from.

Chip:

No, I can't say I've ever seen you say you don't like any tree that comes into play on a golf course. I don't know that I've ever seen you say that you did like a particular tree that came into play on a golf course either. But if you have said the latter than I guess I did miss reading it---sorry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2002, 07:36:45 PM »
Tom MacWood- Have you played the Yale golf course?  If you had you would realize that there are NO hillocks or dunes on the course that remotely affect shot values the same as any sized tree.  There are hillsides that are as tall as trees but they certainly do not project at 90 degree angles from the ground and block shots played forward towards the green.  The most severe might be on the second shot to #3 if you drive too far and especially to the left but even in that case a shot reaching the green is possible. The lie in the rough is much more of a factor then the height of the hill to clear. You should probably restrict your responses regarding playability to courses you have actually played or walked.  

Also which dunes or hillocks on Pebble Beach come into play as hazards the same as a stupid tree?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One solution for "stupid" trees
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2002, 09:02:36 PM »
Geoff,
After a drive you could find yourself too close to the hill on Yale's #18, especially on the right side, and unable to use much else than a very short iron.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon