Charles Banks/Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club

[Craig Disher]

The recent issue of Washington Golf Monthly ran a short piece on a restoration of Banks' Cavalier G&YC in VA Beach. The article claims greatness for the course and the restoration but seems to waffle on what's left of Banks' work:

"Lester (George) did extensive research to return the course to the original intent of CB, with some modernized philosophies that Banks didn't have the abilities to do in his time."

Has anyone seen or played the course and can comment on George's work? A small picture in the article shows what sure looks like a CB-style green site but a couple of far-off fairway bunkers look like they might be a result of "modernized philosophies".

[Jeff Mingay]

As many of you know, I'm presently working on a book about "classic golf course restoration."

I recall Lester George posting here, and hope he chimes in. Because I'm also interested in more detail about "some modern philosophies Banks did not have the ability to do in his time" that Lester applied at Cavalier.  

With all due respect, tha quote reminds me of another, somewhat humourous quote about Martin Hawtree's recent work at Lahinch in Ireland. "It's what Dr. Mackenzie would have done if he had a D-8!"

Well, he didn't. And, based on the research I've done, and some practical experience in golf course construction, I've discovered that it's often those things guys like Macdonald and Mackenzie "couldn't do" that make their courses so unique, and special.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear more about your work at Cavilier, Lester. When you get a chance.

Thanks in advance,

[Lester George]

Craig,

Just saw this for the first time.  Call me and I will discuss.  I really didn't do much with the greens themselves but I did incorporate many bunkers from Banks' routing plan that were not built because of the depression.  Tried to use similar shapes that he drew, which may not look alot like him, but were definitely what he scribbled. 

Call me please.

Lester

[david h. carroll]

i will reserve comment as i don't want anyone to know how cool Cavalier is

[Lester George]

Not sure I follow?

Lester

[jeffwarne]

As many of you know, I'm presently working on a book about "classic golf course restoration."

I recall Lester George posting here, and hope he chimes in. Because I'm also interested in more detail about "some modern philosophies Banks did not have the ability to do in his time" that Lester applied at Cavalier.  

With all due respect, tha quote reminds me of another, somewhat humourous quote about Martin Hawtree's recent work at Lahinch in Ireland. "It's what Dr. Mackenzie would have done if he had a D-8!"

Well, he didn't. And, based on the research I've done, and some practical experience in golf course construction, I've discovered that it's often those things guys like Macdonald and Mackenzie "couldn't do" that make their courses so unique, and special.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear more about your work at Cavalier, Lester. When you get a chance.

Thanks in advance,

I played there last week.

While I did notice a couple of Banks looking features (and I'm no expert), I must say i am intrigued by Mr. Mingay's remarks 7 years ago.

Cavalier had more of a modern look to me-particularly the bunkering.
But I did see Mr. George's comments below about using Bank's "scribbling"
Perhaps he'll elaborate.

It was difficult to get too excited with all the housing, but there was a nice set of par 3's.
 I do remember one par five on the front where there was some nice strategic fairway bunkering,but frankly I was more focused on keeping my ball out of the adjacent neighborhood. (it's pretty early in the year for me)
The same with the following par 3 with a fantastic biarritz green-sadly there was OB just steps off the left fringe-the huge green  stretched to about 220.
#18 is certainly a nice spot and there's a nice stretch in the middle of the course when you briefly break out of the neighborhood and the course does have views of the water.

As I played the course it became apparent to me that setting is more important than we'd like to think (at least to me) which distracted me from even enjoying or evaluating the architecture. It was hard to find fault with individual holes, many were quite good-but there was a high percentage of holes with homes quite snug on both sides.

I was fighting a bit of back spasms and playing dewsweeper by myself so I may've missed some features.
 Charming just wasn't the word coming to mind. (I am obviously shallow)

The course was in wonderful condition, particularly considering it had snowed 4 days before.
The staff was fantastic and accomodating.
I must say I had never seen a driving range so unique (the fairway of the 16th hole) hitting over the members cowering on the edge of the tee was a memorable experience-although they were never in danger as I was well wide of them.

Can anyone elaborate on the history of the Old Cavalier Hotel and the adjacent Princess Anne course? (recently redone-it had quite a modern look to its' features)

[Lester George]

Jeff,

Cavalier is on about 90 acres of land which is why you may have been so aware of the houses. 

It was the "sporting club" of the original Cavalier Hotel (which, I have recently found was owned by some of my ancestors)

The subdivision was created to take advantage of the waterfront and was only supposed to be made up of houses "of modern design" ala Frank Lloyd Wright. 

It's a very cool place and, as you so aptly described, TINY.

Lester

[jeffwarne]

Lester,
I've been trying to put my finger on it.
That all makes sense now.
It was clear to me the house were in all the great water spots.
Those house on #18 are great

a modern look on a golf course surrounded by modern houses makes sense to me-now.

The Bridge is exhibit A for that
-It cracks me up when people want square tees and classic features at The Bridge which is on the site of (and adjacent to) a racetrack whose glory days were in the 50's,60's and 70's.
Complete with a cool ultramodern clubhouse in a great water setting,much like Cavalier's clubhouse setting.

Lester,
Ithink I was aware of the house because I can't hit my driver straight

[Mike Tanner]

I've played Cavalier a number of times, both before and after Lester's work there. What had been a blurry classic course was brought back into sharp relief. Well done, Mr. George.

 It's a pleasure to see the CB Macdonald/Seth Raynor influences on Charles Banks found throughout the course. I won't enumerate them, but there are plenty, including the aforementioned Biarritz and a nifty Redan finishing hole. Yes, it's tightly packed into its site and the houses feel like they're right on top of you at times, but you shouldn't turn down an invitation to play there if you have the opportunity (Sorry, David Carroll). 

[Lester George]

Jeff Mingay,

Didn't notice your post earlier.

Banks definitely had use of his steam shovel when he did Cavalier and needed it as well.  Many parts of the golf course are close to sea level and would have been (and still are) victim to drainage and tidal pools.  He would have had a great deal of trouble keeping the 14th green out of tidal waters had he tried to "minimilize" things.

Our major focus was to restore the 15 original greens by "coring" and reinstate some bunkers that were either filled in or not built do to the economy.

3 other greens which had been "corrupted" over time had to be rebuilt to Banks like standards. 

Call me if you would like to discuss.  804-272-4700.  Better yet, go see it. 

I guess they liked what we did for them, they made me a member just recently even though  I did the work 4 years ago. 

Lester

Lester

[Jeff_Mingay]

Lester,

Funny... I see it took you more than 6 years to answer my question 

[Chris_Blakely]

Lester,

What is the story with the 18th green.  Old pictures that I have seen show a deep Banks / Raynor style greenside bunker on the clubhouse side.  The green that is in place today has either been shaved down / lowered or the bunker filled in.

Also, the Biarritz green has a bunker that cuts into the left side of the first portion of the green prior to the bisecting swale - this seems unbiarritz like and not something I would suspect that Banks did?

Thanks,

Chris

[Lester George]

Jeff,

Thats how fast I type.  Now you know why I say call me if you want to discuss!!

Chris,

The biarritz is JUST how it was built in 1929.  I decided to leave the oblique bunker because it was a Banks original.  He might have been "expanding" his philosophy from CBM and Raynor, who knows?

The 18th was one of the corrupted greens being rebuilt at least three times since the 20's I think.  I was fighting with one hand tied behind my back on that one.  All inside the RPA protection zone, I could not import any fill.  I did reinstate the shoulder to the right but couldn't did deep enough (water table) to do any more.  I may get a chance to add the rear bunker that Banks had there later this year.


Lester

[Chris_Blakely]

Lester,

Wow, that is great info on the Biarritz by Banks.  I liked the hole alot, but when I played it, the fact that is was less geometric jumped out at me!!  Do you know if Cavalier was one of the last courses that Banks did?  If this was one of his later courses this is interesting to know that he was deviating from the templates.

The 18th hole would be a balst if the green was restored and the deep bunker added.

Thanks,

Chris

[Mike Tanner]

Lester,
You mentioned No. 18 as one of three "corrupted" greens. What are the other two? How had they been changed from their original state and how did you remediate them? If all that won't tax your typing skills.  Thanks.

[Scott Weersing]

I did a search on Cavalier and found this very old thread about the course. I was able to play the course this past Monday and I was surprised with how good it is.

It is the best par 69 course I have every played. I cannot think of another course with a par of 69 and a rating of 68. It allows you to hit all the clubs in your bag and play fast or slow. Fast if you avoid the deep bunkers around some of the greens. I think we should have more courses like this because of the speed of play and less turf to manage.

The 18th hole is a great finishing hole because of the view of the bay and it is redan. This course is traditional and is different than any other course in the Virginia Beach area. Because it has only two par fives, golfers might think of it as strange. But that is because they are so used to playing a par 72.

I did not feel that the course is tight or has too many houses because many of the holes have a road between the course and the houses.

[Scott_Burroughs]

18th at Cavalier:



from the side:

[hick]

 I had the chance to play Cavalier a few times back in the winter of 1994, and i must say it looks much different after Lester's work. Does anyone have any  new photos of the 18th hole.

[Lester George]

Mat,

I have some new photos but don't know how to post them.  I'll send a few to Scott Burroughs and he will usually post them for me.

Lester

[Bill_McBride]

After seeing that photo of the 18th, I am even more excited about getting to play four of Lester's courses during the Dixie Cup in October this year!  That 18th at Cavalier is just beautiful.

I'm starting to think LG doesn't get as much attention from this group as his work merits.

[Robert Kimball]

 Bumping this back up . . .

Just got back from Va. Beach and had the opportunity to play Cavalier.  The first thing that jumps out at me is that a course of this caliber is routed on 94 acres . . .  think about that. Sure, three par 3s and a par of 69, but who cares? Actually, I like that “quirkiness,” for lack of a better word. I am not a regular player anymore, but used to be a good golfer back in the day, and I got my tail handed to me by this 6,000 yard course. And, don’t feel bad Jeff Mingay, I also sprayed my ball all over the place and almost killed a bicyclist in the process!

Even more enjoyable was discussing the course with Lester George after I returned. Lester had a lot to share (most of its talked about above), and he said he still has a lump of coal on his desk that his crew excavated from under the 6th green(?), no doubt used by Banks to fuel the steam shovel. He also hinted that there might be some more tweaking done in the future if the club decides to expand its facilities.  So, there might be some bunkers on the 5th Biarritz or a back bunker on 18. . . .

On another note, I have to admit the guys I played with didn’t care or care to learn about Banks and the history of the course. Nothing against the members, they were all very nice and generous, but they were playing their weekly betting game and were more concerned about how many strokes I was getting (not enough). I got a lot of blank stares and polite “huh, that’s interesting” responses when I talked about my anticipation of the Biarritz green on #5 and the strategy of bringing the shot in from the right on the Redan. 

On asking if they knew anything about Lester George, one guy said: “He’s that guy who came in, tore up the course for a year and we had to play Princess Ann instead, right?”

I just chuckled and said: “yes, I think that’s who he is.”

God bless the golf course architect. Here he/she does all this good work developing new courses or restoring old classic ones, and most of the golfers could care less about history or the development of certain holes. Not all golfers, mind you, but it seems like most.

Great experience and a must see for classic course enthusiasts. Thanks again, Lester. And, thanks Ran for providing a web site that allows a guy like me to talk to a guy like Lester and get such insight into a great design.

-- Rob

[Bill_McBride]

After seeing that photo of the 18th, I am even more excited about getting to play four of Lester's courses during the Dixie Cup in October this year!  That 18th at Cavalier is just beautiful.

I'm starting to think LG doesn't get as much attention from this group as his work merits.

Now that I have played Kinloch, I think that 18th green looks a lot like a par 3 green at Kinloch.  That green also sits hard against the water and should not be taken lightly although a short iron approach.   Don't ask how I know.......Beautiful design.