Does anyone just NOT like Pine Valley, National, etc.

[Bob_Huntley]

JS.,

Much, much lower.

Ian,

It sure would have to be high grade stuff at that, to place it third.

Bob

[Philippe Binette]

I could understand somebody not get thrilled at first sight by Merion...

Merion is a very special place, historically speaking, probably one of the best routings on earth (using every inches of the property really well) but its quality is subtle so some people (used to framing design and all that) might not understand it.

From the outside, I could also understand some people not finding something special at Winged Foot.

I find it tough to put a ranking for courses or agree with one... but to me, there are great courses and the rest.

The only course I could have trouble with is Shadow Creek,  definitely not because it's Fazio, it could be anybody else, (I have not seen it in person) but I feel like great courses have something with their connection to the regional landscape.

As a analogy, it seems to me that Shadow Creek could feel like going to Lake Las Vegas to see a typical Italian village, it would still feel like crap compare to a real Italian village, if not fron the inside, you are going to leave this fake Italian village and arrive in the middle of a commercial strip, so from the outside it won't work...
I could be wrong on this one

[JSlonis]

JS.,

Much, much lower.

Ian,

It sure would have to be high grade stuff at that, to place it third.

Bob

Really???

Wow...I have the exact opposite opinion of you regarding Muirfield.  I guess it's different horses for different courses.

I had the chance to play several rounds at Muirfield this past August during the British Mid-Am, and I came away thinking Muirfield was as complete a test of golf that I have ever seen.  For me, Muirfield presented the total package in terms of variety, stratgey, and shot options.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are quite a few low-handicap types who just hate The National Golf Links of America.  

In their eyes it is too wide open, short, the greens are too severe, and the blind shots are unfair.  

Tom Doak,

In all of the years that I've been playing golf and at NGLA I'd say that more, decent to good players, found NGLA objectionable, than any other course that I've played at with others.

I think it's the combination of quirk, blindness, greens, fairway contouring and variety in each hole that throws them off and has them declare the course less than they expected or unsatisfactory.

I have to confess that when I walked off the 18th green for the first time, I had to reflect on what I'd just experienced. Some of the course remained a mystery to me and I was chomping at the bit to get back out and re-examine the holes and the features.

I think that the golf course and features are so out of the ordinary, individually and collectively, that it throws off a number of good players, and anybody who doesn't enjoy elements of quirk.[/color]

There aren't any of them on this board who are willing to say so and subject themselves to the Inquisition, but they're out there.  [In fact, 25 years ago, National wasn't even in GOLF DIGEST's top 100 courses in America because of the factors above.]

I'd say it was unappreciated or undiscovered for a good deal of time.

Perhaps because of the direction that golf course architecture had taken vis a vis RTJ, Dick Wilson, Pete Dye and others.[/color]

[Ian Andrew]

Phillipe,

"I could understand somebody not get thrilled at first sight by Merion...

Merion is a very special place, historically speaking, probably one of the best routings on earth (using every inches of the property really well) but its quality is subtle so some people (used to framing design and all that) might not understand it. "

I don't see this. Merion is hardly subtle, if fact, I think the architecture is stronger than most of the courses in the top 25. You can't help but be impressed with the position of the bunkers in relation to the slopes of the fairways which you must find (particularly off the tee). I thought the strategies were very straight forward and clear.

The only thing that I found subtle was the wonderful change of pace over the three sections of holes. An exacting but manageable first six. The short and testy next seven that puts pressure on you to score. And the tough and dangerous five that places pressure on every shot.

I'm curious, what do you think is subtle at Merion ?

[Tim MacEachern]

For me, Muirfield presented the total package in terms of variety, stratgey, and shot options.

Not to mention beauty and storied history.  A thoroughly enjoyable place to play.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I don't know how one cannot love PV. It's just beyond me.

On the other hand, Pebble didn't do anything for me. My top three are PV, TOC, Shinny.

I also love Bethpage Black, Ballybunion and North Berwick. Dunno about Cypress Pt - I never even got close to that one (edit -  I got a glimpse from the 17 Mile Drive).

Perhaps we would learn something about ourselves if we understood why we love certain courses while other leave us cold?

[Ian Andrew]

Voytek,

There was a long debate over the merits of Pinehurst #2, I pretty sure it was started by Tom Doak. The post was about if #2 (the duece) was built now, would it get ignored by all the golf magazines. I'm pretty sure Tom felt that it would go largely ignored.

If you know how to find old threads, this may be interesting to you.

[Philippe Binette]

Ian :  (Merion is hardly subtle, if fact, I think the architecture is stronger than most of the courses in the top 25. You can't help but be impressed with the position of the bunkers in relation to the slopes of the fairways which you must find (particularly off the tee). I thought the strategies were very straight forward and clear.)

Ian, the explanation you just gave is one of an experience GCA, not everybody would see that.

Maybe subtle is not the right word, but Merion was (when I walk the course in 2003) less unique visually than let's say, Shinnecock Hills, Royal Melbourne, NGLA etc. But 2003 was only one year after they had redone all the bunkers so it look less spectacular (it looked like a typical parkland course, but of course a million times better as far as the architecture than the typical parkland course).

So that was I could imagine (in 2003) somebody playing there, thinking it's a very good course but that person wouldn't be able to say if it's a better course or different than another one.

There's no doubt that Merion is a great course in my mind.

 

[Jeff Goldman]

Certainly Pinehurst (along with maybe TOC) is probably the one folks think is the worst of the bunch.  A group of golfers I know took a trip there, and were so unimpressed that one of them called his travel agent from the 5th fairway to try to cancel the rest of the trip.  

Jeff Goldman

[jim_lewis]

Jeff:

I have always said tha #2 is a test of character. You know, patience, self control, dealing with adversity, etc.  Sounds like your friend(s) flunked the test.  Is his name John Daly?

Most of the players that I have know who didn't like #2 were not the high handicappers. Not many of those play #2, and those who do probably don't have unrealistic expectations. The guys I have heard complain most are the single digit handicappers, escpecially 4-8, who seem to think that if they hit the fairway off the tee, they should be able to go for the flags and hit about 14 greens in regulation. They seem to expect to shoot their handicaps and go bananas when their "good" shots are not rewarded. Pinehurst #2 rewards "excellent" shots, only tolerates "good" shots and punishes "mediocre" shots. The secret to scoring at #2 is not greens in regulation, but knowing where you can miss and where not to miss the greens. This, of course, is spoken by one who has had rare success there. It's all about expectations.

Jim

[cary lichtenstein]

Suppose I'm lucky enough to hit 14 greens in regulation at #2.

From a realistic standpoint point, how many of those greens do you think the ball will roll off?

[Gene Greco]

Suppose I'm lucky enough to hit 14 greens in regulation at #2.

From a realistic standpoint point, how many of those greens do you think the ball will roll off?

   Cary has hit the nail on the head. Brilliant angles for approaches are a given but hit the shot of your life everytime and leave yourself with the same miserable recovery shot over and over again.
    If I want Ross give me Seminole, Plainfield or Wannamoiset every time for challenge AND fun.

[Bill Gayne]

I met a gentleman once who told me he had an opportunity to join Pine Valley back in the 70's and he declined. He said it was the second biggest mistake he had made. The biggest being the opportunity to invest in Microsoft pre-IPO and turning that one down.

[jim_lewis]

Cary:

I suggest that you have not "hit" a green unless the ball  comes to rest on the green. If a ball spends some time on the green and fails to stay on the green, we call that a "green visited". Now, to be serious, I think that how many of your "visit" turn out to be "hits" depends on factors such as trajectory, crispness of the hit, which part of the green you hit, and whether you fly the ball onto the green or bounce it on.

Gene:
I share your affection for Seminole and Wannamoisett. I just fail to understand the American golfer's obsession with greens in regulation. It seems to me that the object of the game is to take the fewest strokes possible. There are many places on #2 (and most good courses) where you may have a better chance of scoring from off the green than the wrong spot on the green. I'll readily admit that #2 can drive you crazy and that it is difficult to retain your composure when a "good" shot is not rewarded. The player who can deal with that and keep his wits about him is likely to beat a better player who can not. It helps if you anticipate and accept that challenge from the beginning. I have managed to beat quite a few players who are much better ball strikers than me on #2. Some courses may be more "fun", but for me there is no greater challenge and no more fun than that occasional good day on #2.

Jeff:

Hole #5 is the toughest par 4 if have ever played. Many players have left that hole threatening never to return. One reason #6 is such a tough par 3 is because you are often still steamed over what #5 did to you. My approach is to treat #5 as a par 5. Unless you have a plus handicap, you must assume that you are going to make a bogey or two somewhere during the round. It will very likely happen at #5, so just deal with it. I play it as a par 5 so my 6 will seem like a bogey!

[John Kirk]

I've only played 4 or 5 on the world list.

I played Merion for the first time last year.  I loved it immediately, though I feel it's greatest weakness is using long rough to defend par.

I played Winged Foot (West) for the first time last year.  I thought it was overrated, mostly because of the flat terrain and the repetitive push up greens.  Also, I was never fooled on the greens, reading every putt approximately right.  I thought the back nine was very good, with more variety and ground movement.  How it ranks above Pacific Dunes and Crystal Downs baffles me, though its straightforward difficulty counts for something.  Does its history and championship pedigree count too?

My home course, Pumpkin Ridge, is quite similar to Winged Foot, with two relatively equal, championship worthy courses.  Over the past few years, we have hosted a few Winged Foot groups, who generally finish their rounds very impressed with the course(s).  I believe our club is every bit as good as theirs, especially for women and higher handicap players.  However, for the good to great player, Pumpkin's green complexes aren't severe enough and the fairways are too flat.  I wish it had been built a little wilder.  Overall, it's a great members club.

I also played Plainfield on the same trip and liked it better than Winged Foot.

I just know somebody is going to call me on these remarks, based on one round.

 

[Sean_A]

I too was disappointed with the Deuce, but I still liked the course a load.  #2 fulfilled one of my main criteria for golf course, it (the greens) made me smile.  I understand that some folks can get a bit frustrated about the approaches and chipping, myself included.  I needed to play about six greens before I could begin to understand how to chip.  I never did figure out the approaches other than be very accurate.  While #2 isn't my favorite course by a long way, I still think it would be an excellent course to play on a weekly basis.

Ciao

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Winged Foot (West) for the first time last year.  I thought it was overrated, mostly because of the flat terrain and the repetitive push up greens.  

John,

With comments like the above, might I suggest that you post under an alias.

In addition, your experience with the golf course is limited to the context of its preparation for this year's U.S. Open.[/color]

Also, I was never fooled on the greens, reading every putt approximately right.  [color=green

Then I know where you can make a lot of money for one week this June.[/color]

I thought the back nine was very good, with more variety and ground movement.  

How it ranks above Pacific Dunes and Crystal Downs baffles me, though its straightforward difficulty counts for something.  

This is where the alias would come in handy.[/color]

Does its history and championship pedigree count too?

My home course, Pumpkin Ridge, is quite similar to Winged Foot, with two relatively equal, championship worthy courses.  

Surely, you jest.[/color]

Over the past few years, we have hosted a few Winged Foot groups, who generally finish their rounds very impressed with the course(s).  I believe our club is every bit as good as theirs, especially for women and higher handicap players.
Winged Foot members tend to be very polite and diplomatic.

But, that's not a view shared by the bulk of the golfing world.

Perhaps one visit wasn't sufficient for you to get a feel and understanding of the East and West courses at Winged Foot.[/color]

However, for the good to great player, Pumpkin's green complexes aren't severe enough and the fairways are too flat.  I wish it had been built a little wilder.  Overall, it's a great members club.

I also played Plainfield on the same trip and liked it better than Winged Foot.

I just know somebody is going to call me on these remarks, based on one round.

Only since you indirectly requested it.[/color]

 

[Voytek Wilczak]

I met a gentleman once who told me he had an opportunity to join Pine Valley back in the 70's and he declined. He said it was the second biggest mistake he had made. The biggest being the opportunity to invest in Microsoft pre-IPO and turning that one down.

So he missed a chance to be extremely wealthy and play PV every day. How do you recover from that?

I guess you can try: I still have a great family. Or: I still have my health...

Nah....

[Gene Greco]

Gene:
I'll readily admit that #2 can drive you crazy and that it is difficult to retain your composure when a "good" shot is not rewarded.  

Jim:

     Tom Doak and I agree on the merits of virtually every golf course with the exception of this one. Who has the better eye for great golf architecture?

      Obviously, Tom and yourself and many others see #2 as the ultimate "recovery" golf course in a game which is basically one of just that - recovery.

       That in and of itself could qualify its greatness. However, anyone could build a golf course with 18 convex greens and have you spend all day in a sort of purgatory of recovery.

        For me, #2 approaches this type of purgatory.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Patrick.  I had you in mind.  You're right, maybe I need to play it a few more times.  See you this summer.

Of course, if I were to give your response the full Mucci treatment, I'd ask:

1.  Have you ever played Pumpkin Ridge's courses?
2.  Have you ever played Pacific Dunes?

I have yet to play an American course as good as Pacific Dunes.

I know we're talking architecture here, but early summer days in Oregon are intoxicating.

[Tom_Doak]

I should interject that I haven't played #2 in about ten years, and I played it only once then ... my main experience with it is from 15-25 years ago.  I do not remember it the same way, as being impossible to hold the greens with a reasonable iron shot.

It's possible that the "expansion" of the greens for championship play has made it too severe for everyday play.  Twenty years ago, the people who didn't like it thought it was boring, but few thought it was unfair.  I just thought they had no imagination!

Crystal Downs was getting silly a couple of years back when they got the greens too fast -- it's been a favorite of mine since 1982 but I was starting to question it.  Last year they got the greens back to where they should be, and it was probably the best course I played all year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks, Patrick.  I had you in mind.  You're right, maybe I need to play it a few more times.  See you this summer.

Of course, if I were to give your response the full Mucci treatment, I'd ask:

1.  Have you ever played Pumpkin Ridge's courses?
YES[/color]

2.  Have you ever played Pacific Dunes?

YES[/color]

I have yet to play an American course as good as Pacific Dunes.

Not many courses enjoy that site and setting, let alone the architecture.

Nothing would please me more than to play the courses at Bandon, repeatedly, in all types of winds.
That would be a special treat.

You can keep the rain.[/color]

I know we're talking architecture here, but early summer days in Oregon are intoxicating.

I'm told that the weather from July 4th to mid-october is great, and that from mid-october to July 4th it rains.

At 27 consecutive days of rain in Seattle and Oregon, I think I'll pass on winter golf in your neck of the woods.  
That's depressing, unless you're in the No-tell, motel.[/color]

[John Kirk]

Funny.  May and June aren't so bad, either.  The sun stays up late, and the cool sky is filled with heavy cumulus clouds.

But right now it's awful.  15 inches of rain the last month.  Only the heartiest of the mudders are out there playing.  Of course, if it isn't raining, the course is frozen about now.  I haven't picked up a club in six weeks.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
   If you don't mind me jumping in...why do you prefer Winged Foot to Pumpkin Ridge? I'm not trying to insinuate that you're right or wrong; I don't know much about either course and am curious as to your reasoning.

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