Does anyone just NOT like Pine Valley, National, etc.

[ChipOat]

We debate the relative merits of the great courses here but I don't know that anyone actually has said they truly don't really like one or some of them.

Do we know any credible golfers that really don't like one (or some) of the Top 10-20 courses?

In all my years, I have met only one truly accomplished player who said he just didn't enjoy Pine Valley and didn't include it anywhere near his personal Top 10.  This guy's attitude was normally a little rebellious anyway, but for a tournament caliber amateur to say PV wasn't all that impressive - that was (and still is) unique.

I know a fair number of players who prefer Shinnecock to National (but more vice versa, I think).  I don't think any of them actually dislike the other, though.

I have heard many players voice disappointment after their first round at Merion - they were expecting something more, I guess.  But I don't think they didn't LIKE the East Course - they just weren't blown away as they expected.

I think TOC is somewhat overrated as a global Top 10, but that sure doesn't mean I don't like it.

Is it really possible for a decent golfer to truly believe that one of the Top 10-20 classics is really just ORDINARY?

Pebble gets some flak here but do any of the naysayers really think it's just medium OK??

I'll guess many PGA Tour pro's may be indifferent to the art of great architecture.  Golf is, after all, their job.

This may not be the best place to ask the question, but whether I agree with a certain top course's accolades and hosanna's, I've sure never played one that left me cold.

How can a decent golfer NOT think PV, SH, Merion, PB, TOC, etc. aren't, at the least, really good courses?

[Doug Siebert]

I wonder how many would be willing to step up and so if they believed it.  They'd have to have had access in the past to be able to say they didn't like a course, and unless they REALLY hated it so much they would never ever want to go back, that kind of honesty might not get them invited back.

I see some occasional digs at Pebble and TOC, but never have seen a harsh word written here about PV or NGLA.  Are they just that much better than TOC that there is no possible criticism?  Would we still read the occasional criticisms of TOC if it was as difficult to get onto as PV?  Criticisms of ANGC seem to be more prevalent here, but perhaps because most people assume they'll never have a chance to play there so there's no real loss.  Plus, seeing it on TV every year makes everyone feel they are an expert on the place.

Sorry, I don't have any criticisms of my own to contribute about those Eastern greats because I've never played or walked any of them.  Of course, topics like this might increase my expectations even more so I might be one of those who is disappointed if I ever get to play them!

[Tom_Doak]

There are quite a few low-handicap types who just hate The National Golf Links of America.  In their eyes it is too wide open, short, the greens are too severe, and the blind shots are unfair.  There aren't any of them on this board who are willing to say so and subject themselves to the Inquisition, but they're out there.  [In fact, 25 years ago, National wasn't even in GOLF DIGEST's top 100 courses in America because of the factors above.]

Pine Valley doesn't get much criticism, because the people who would criticize it are 25-handicappers, and none of them ever get to play it.  And the complaints of 25-handicappers aren't taken seriously by good players anyway!

[Mike_Young]

I will say I prefer Merion before Pine Valley.  Just my preference.  
And as for NGLA...Charlie had some pros that missed the US Open cut play it with him.  I will not name names but one laughed at it and charlie and the other said it was the best they had played.  All opinion.

[Ian Andrew]

The top group are really tough to beat, and offer no arguement from me. The first one I truly do not get is Oakland Hills.

Why ?

I recognize those are great greens, some of the best I've seen, but I think that is where the greatness ends. The 10th and 11th are fantastic holes, but the balance of the holes are built over moderately interesting terrain. A few of them lack inspiration, with the 16th probably being the least interesting "famous" hole I have ever seen.

The strategies are basic, almost repetitive at times, with very little variation on a very simple theme. Essentially the course is tough, a good US Open, full of history, but I just don't see it as one of the best courses in the world.

For hose who disagree, educate me on what I don't get.


1. PINE VALLEY G.C.  George Crump & H.S. Colt (1918)
2. AUGUSTA NATIONAL G.C. Alister Mackenzie & Bobby Jones (1933)
3. SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C. William Flynn (1931)    
4. CYPRESS POINT CLUB Alister Mackenzie & Robert Hunter (1928)
5. OAKMONT C.C.  Henry Fownes (1903)
6. PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS  Jack Neville & Douglas Grant (1919)
7. MERION G.C.  Hugh Wilson (1912)
8. WINGED FOOT G.C. A.W. Tillinghast (1923)    
9. NATIONAL G. LINKS OF AMERICA C.B. Macdonald (1911)
10. SEMINOLE G.C. Donald Ross (1929)    
11. CRYSTAL DOWNS C.C. Alister Mackenzie & Perry Maxwell (1931)    
12. SAND HILLS G.C. Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw (1994)
13. OAKLAND HILLS C.C. (South)  Donald Ross (1918)/Robert T. Jones (1950)    
14. PINEHURST RESORT & C.C. (No. 2) Donald Ross (1935)
15. MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3) Tom Bendelow (1928)    
16. FISHERS ISLAND CLUB Seth Raynor & Charles Banks (1926)    
17. WADE HAMPTON G.C. Tom Fazio (1987)    
18. MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C.  Jack Nicklaus & Desmond Muirhead (1974)
19. THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel) Willie Campbell (1895)/Alex Campbell (1902)    
20. SHADOW CREEK Tom Fazio (1990)

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

I agree completely. I don't think Oakland Hills-South should be ranked the 13th best course in America; not even close.

Driving is the same, hole after hole. Thread it down a narrow fairway with bunkers right and left 280 yards off the tee. Boring.

As you say, there are some very cool greens at Oakland Hills - the 14th is probably my favourite. But there are a bunch of mediocre holes there, too, including 16, which as you point out, is one of the most bland "famous" holes in the world.

Visually, the scale's all wrong as well. In other words, those narrow ribbons of fairway look really goofy laid out across that massive, rolling property.  

Oakland Hills-South has a clearly definable place in the history of golf. But it's not top-20 caliber.

[jim_lewis]

Hey! I'm not bashful. I'm not selling anything or running for any office, so I don't mind saying that NGLA is not in my top 20. I have only played it once, and had to join a group on the 5th tee. I loved the course from #5 thru #18. Then I went back and played the first four holes. I wish I had not, because I was completely unimpressed by the first three holes.

I have played Wade Hampton at least 25 times now over the past several years. In my view, it is not close to the top 20 and barely makes the top 10 of the 60 or so Fazio courses I have seen. The problem is drainage. They have improved the drainage and made a few other improvements over the years, but it still playes too soft. Brak klein once told me that one measurement of a course is how may drain grates are in play. Wade Hampton may hold the record.

BTW, I don't mind offering my opinion, but I am too lazy to spend time defending it.

[Andy Hughes]

I haven't been to either, but there have certainly been back-and-forths on GCA about Winged Foot and Medinah and their relative merits.

Jim Lewis--hmm, I have imagined #3 at NGLA, the Alps hole, to be one of the all-time great holes. You were less than impressed?

[SPDB]

Chip -
Happy New Year!

Like Mike, I prefer Merion to Pine Valley. If I play Pine Valley, I usually play Merion on the same trip and so I feel like I have a pretty good frame of reference for each of the courses relative to the other. I can't say why exactly I have this preference, since, in the abstract, Pine Valley is a course that should appeal to me more (e.g. width, more varied greensites, etc.). Merion just seems much more solid to me.

NGLA beats them both out. There's so much quirk there that it makes for a pretty unique experience every time you play.

[Philippe Binette]

Medinah is 15th?
What is Wade Hampton golf club is 17th?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

In the context of the GOLF Magazine ratings, I have never agreed with Pinehurst in the world top 10, which it was in 2003 at 9 and 6th in the U.S.

I am not saying it is not great, just not top ten.

I think of all of the courses that the average 25 handicapper thinks are the most overrated they have seen (if they are willing to voice it), Pinehurst is the one I have heard most from golf travellers.

[mike_malone]

 I have trouble with a listing of courses by number. It seems to imply that #13 is slightly better than #14 ,for example. I prefer to see courses in classes much like the Doak scale.

    Of this list I have played Merion, Pine Valley, Winged Foot West, and The National Golf Links. PVGC and NGLA are in that very top category. Merion is in the next one and Winged Foot in that large group of very good courses IMHO. It just comes down to the intensity factor for me. A small lull is okay but the fun must go on from the first tee shot to the last holeout. The criticism of Oakland Hills sounds similar to my previous posts on WFW.


     Just yesterday I played my favorite $20 winter course, Centerton ,in New Jersey. I asked myself "Was WFW worth 10 times this course? " No way in my mind , but NGLA  was priceless.

   And on this list WFW is above NGLA. How is that possible?


     I might add that I groveled for 20 years to get to PVGC. Now that I have played it, I won't grovel anymore; it does not suit my game.

[Mike_Sweeney]

1. PINE VALLEY G.C.  George Crump & H.S. Colt (1918)
2. AUGUSTA NATIONAL G.C. Alister Mackenzie & Bobby Jones (1933)
3. SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C. William Flynn (1931)    
4. CYPRESS POINT CLUB Alister Mackenzie & Robert Hunter (1928)
5. OAKMONT C.C.  Henry Fownes (1903)
6. PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS  Jack Neville & Douglas Grant (1919)
7. MERION G.C.  Hugh Wilson (1912)
8. WINGED FOOT G.C. A.W. Tillinghast (1923)    
9. NATIONAL G. LINKS OF AMERICA C.B. Macdonald (1911)
10. SEMINOLE G.C. Donald Ross (1929)    
11. CRYSTAL DOWNS C.C. Alister Mackenzie & Perry Maxwell (1931)    
12. SAND HILLS G.C. Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw (1994)
13. OAKLAND HILLS C.C. (South)  Donald Ross (1918)/Robert T. Jones (1950)    
14. PINEHURST RESORT & C.C. (No. 2) Donald Ross (1935)
15. MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3) Tom Bendelow (1928)    
16. FISHERS ISLAND CLUB Seth Raynor & Charles Banks (1926)    
17. WADE HAMPTON G.C. Tom Fazio (1987)    
18. MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C.  Jack Nicklaus & Desmond Muirhead (1974)
19. THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel) Willie Campbell (1895)/Alex Campbell (1902)    
20. SHADOW CREEK Tom Fazio (1990)

Chip,

Using Ian's posted list to answer your question, I have played 9 and enjoyed myself at each. Winged Foot being the hardest for me, I still love playing there.

I would like to play 5 more on the list - Augusta, Oakmont, Seminole, Crystal and TCC.

The other 6, I would certainly play if convenient, but would not make a special trip and would rather play overseas.

PS. Sorry Shivas, Medinah is getting thrown under the bus!

[Ian Andrew]

To Ben's point, we probably should be working off the list rather than a US based list. My bad.

I have seen a lot of this list and I really can't argue much till I get to Oakland Hills.

I may not get Turnberry, but I would never argue the respect it gets. It's real good, but I can't help feeling that it should of been better.

Unlike Ben, I do get Pinehurst and feel it belongs. The uniqueness and brilliance of it's architecture makes it worthy of any list. It's influence on architecture is unquestionable.

Golf Magazines Top 25 World List

1 Pine Valley  Clementon, NJ  Crump/Colt, 1918  
2 Cypress Point  Pebble Beach, CA  Mackenzie, 1928; Egan  
3 Muirfield  Gullane, Scotland  T. Morris, 1891; Colt, Simpson  
4 Shinnecock Hills  Southampton, NY  Flynn, 1931  
5 Augusta National  Augusta, GA  Mackenzie/Bobby Jones, 1932  
6 St. Andrews (Old Course)  St. Andrews, Scotland  16th century  
7 Pebble Beach  Pebble Beach, CA  Neville/Grant, 1919; Egan  
8 Royal Melbourne (Composite)  Melbourne, Australia  Mackenzie/Russell, 1926  
9 Pinehurst (No. 2)  Pinehurst, NC  D. Ross, 1935  
10 Royal County Down  Newcastle, Northern Ireland  T. Morris, 1889; Dunn, Vardon  
11 Sand Hills  Mullen, NE  Coore/Crenshaw, 1995  
12 Royal Portrush (Dunluce)  Portrush, Northern Ireland  Colt, 1929  
13 Ballybunion (Old)  Ballybunion, Ireland  Murphy, 1906; Simpson, Gourlay  
14 Merion (East)  Ardmore, PA  H. Wilson, 1912  
15 Oakmont  Oakmont, PA  Fownes, 1903  
16 Royal Dornoch  Dornoch, Scotland  T. Morris, 1886; Sutherland, Duncan  
17 Turnberry (Ailsa)  Turnberry, Scotland  P.M. Ross, 1906  
18 Winged Foot (West)  Mamaroneck, NY  Tillinghast, 1923  
19 Pacific Dunes  Bandon, OR  Doak, 2001  
20 National Golf Links of America  Southampton, NY  Macdonald, 1911  
21 Kingston Heath  Cheltenham, Australia  Soutar, 1925; Mackenzie  
22 Seminole  North Palm Beach, FL  D. Ross, 1929; D. Wilson  
23 Prairie Dunes  Hutchinson, KS  Maxwell, 1935  
24 Crystal Downs  Frankfort, MI  Mackenzie/Maxwell, 1929  
25 Oakland Hills (South)  Bloomfield Hills, MI  D. Ross, 1917; R.T. Jones  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Here is an article on a guy who just finished the Golf Top 100 World list.

http://tinyurl.com/acx4p

[John Kavanaugh]

I played with a Golf Digest rater this summer that didn't like Sand Hills...I can't tell you how refreshing that guy was..

[Steve Lang]

 

Don't like them endlessly being the "goto references" for everything gca.. but then again, i haven't seen them in person, like the Top 100 guy..  who should probably work on the 100-200 list next, to have any pespective.. in a top-down way of course and off-course

[Mike_Sweeney]

I played with a Golf Digest rater this summer that didn't like Sand Hills...I can't tell you how refreshing that guy was..

So did you have to give him a free driveway repaving to get VN to #21 ?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ian,
I have to agree with you also, I was very uninspired when I had the chance to play Oakland Hills, not a bad course at all but I certainly think it is one of the more overated courses.
It will be intersting to see it again this summer after the changes that I believe are taking place.

[Sean_A]

Ian

I find it interesting that you think OH is not top notch, but The Deuce is.  I don't know if OH is top drawer or not because I only have The Deuce to compare it with.  I much prefer OH, but this could be down to me being more aquainted with OH.  

It seems you don't care for the driving aspect of OH.  The same could be said of #2 in reverse.  #2 is a bit monotonous off the tee as there is little trouble.  The course is all about the greens.  The problem with the greens is that many don't offer a view of the landing areas.  I have no qualms with this, but I think it is overdone.  Much the same way you are looking for variety off the tee at OH (which is a valid point) I find myself looking for variety off the tee and for variety of approaches at #2.  

OH easily makes my top 25 and #2 isn't in sight.  I would take OH 6.5-3.5.

Turnberry would be the one course I would pick as not being top 25.  There are many alright holes and more to the point, there are only a few outstanding holes.  Numbers 8 & 10 would grace any course, but these are not enough to keep such lofted company.

Ciao

Sean

[Bob_Huntley]

Anyone that places Muirfield third on any list must, like Coleridge, be on the funny stuff.

Bob

[TEPaul]

I've never run across anyone who didn't like PVGC or let's say didn't really admire PVGC.

I've run across a number of people and some really into golf architecture who don't like NGLA.

Actually, I can't recall running into anyone who didn't admire Shinnecock either. I guess I can understand that but not as well as PVGC.

When it comes to NGLA I must tell you when I was a little teenager I'd go down there occasionally with my Dad who'd generally play with Jimmy Knott, Bobby Grant or Tommy Tailor and in those days it didn't seem like those guys were all that impressed with NGLA. What those guys really looked forward to was going over to NGLA and sitting around on the porch and having a bunch of drinks and a really nice lunch. Golf seemed to be sort of secondary. Sometimes they'd go out and play and sometimes they wouldn't.

It's funny---I was down at that body shop in Southampton a year or so ago talking to Swede and Tureski who have all that Macdonald memorablia. They used to caddy at NGLA all the time. Swede was telling me what great guys some of those he caddied for were. I said, "Like who?" He said the greatest one he could remember was Jimmy Knott. I said: "That's funny, Swede, because in my opinion, Jimmy Knott was about the biggest and meanest sum-a-bitch I ever knew in my entire life."  

Knott looked distinctly like a cross between John Wayne and W.C Fields.

[TEPaul]

Sometimes people's opinions of great golf courses surprise the hell out of you. Last summer I was talking to Pete Dye and a bunch of other guys at a tournament and all of a sudden (and with a couple of Seminole members standing there) Pete blurted out that in his opinion the greens of Seminole were about the worst greens on a good golf course he was aware of. One of the Seminole members was so surprised he even said: "Pete did I hear that right?" And Pete said, "Yeah, you heard it right, I think they're about the worst greens on a good golf course in the world."

[JSlonis]

Anyone that places Muirfield third on any list must, like Coleridge, be on the funny stuff.

Bob

Do you feel it should be higher or lower?

[Ian Andrew]

Bob,

I like Muirfield a lot........ must be the opium.  

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