Putts that break up hill

[Steve_Lemmon]

When I was a kid, we used to visit the "wacky shack" at Astroworld.  There, the water would seem to flow up hill, balls would roll up hill, and everything was just a little "off."  Leaving there, you are a little out of sync for a short time.  

Every once in a while, you encounter a green where putts seem to break up hill, not just a little, but quite a bit.  They are not really breaking up hill, but the green coupled with the surrounding terrain simply fool you.  You can hit the putt 5 times, play there 5 times, and still not quite be able to clearly "see" what is going on. I recall one short par 3 at Treyburn in NC, and my home course in Texas has two putts on two different greens that will do this.   A first time visitor to the course will never read the putt correctly.  

My question is:  Are you evil genius architects doing this to us on purpose or is this simply a function of the surrounding terrain overcoming what the golfer views on the green surfaces?  

[Scott Cannon]

Steve, I am not an evil genius architect, but as a fellow Texan I figured I could reply.
I think the answer is both. They know the surrounding terrain will fool golfers.
I am also think giving you a home course advantage on those 2 putts is cool. Which holes, just incase we play in a match this year...

[Steve_Lemmon]

Just between us two, it is 5 and 15, but only in certain pin locations.  It is helpful when trying to beat your guests, since they walk off doubting their eyes and then expect it to happen again on every hole thereafter.  

[Sean Leary]

This happens quite a bit in Palm Springs and Scottsdale, where greens generally break towards one direction.  I played in Palm Springs on Wednesday and there were a couple of putts that I would have bet my life broke one way and they went the other.  

[Scott Cannon]

Just between us two, it is 5 and 15, but only in certain pin locations.  It is helpful when trying to beat your guests, since they walk off doubting their eyes and then expect it to happen again on every hole thereafter.  

AGC???

[cary lichtenstein]

This only happens to left eye dominant players

[Steve_Lemmon]

Hey Cary:  are you just yanking my chain (I happen to be left eye dominant), or is it really the case that it only happens to left eye dominant players?  Is there some physics-type reason?

[Garland Bayley]

Probably won't fool a significant number of touring pros, since they read the putts with their feet.

[TEPaul]

I have no idea if this has anything to do with it but the only  greens I know of that have a putt that really does appear to break uphill are somewhat "bowlish" or "swalish" in shape---eg the 8th at Merion and the 11th at Pine Valley.

[A_Clay_Man]

I do sense Cary was joking.

Steve- The putts that resemble what I think you are talking about actually do break uphill. Now, before I get the talking police all up my groove thing, what I have found is that the putt has an early break that is complimentary to the latter. While the vector, (or is it orbit?) is decaying, it is still going contrary to what you see as downhill.
Does that make any sense?

[Joe Hancock]

I have no idea if this has anything to do with it but the only  greens I know of that have a putt that really does appear to break uphill are somewhat "bowlish" or "swalish" in shape---eg the 8th at Merion and the 11th at Pine Valley.

Tom,

A week ago, I would have had no idea what the specifics would be concerning Merion. But, now I know! I am sure we had this exact discussion while we were there, no?

Joe

[Mike Hendren]

EVERY putt breaks uphill on Beverly's 14th green.  

Mike

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
A week ago, I would have had no idea what the specifics would be concerning Merion. But, now I know! I am sure we had this exact discussion while we were there, no?"

Joe:

We sure did, that's the hole---the 8th at Merion. Obviously it doesn't break uphill but where we were rolling the ball looks like it does. I know that putt from experience and when most people read it they play left to right break and it actually goes the other way---not a lot but it does. That's the green you told me you could feel it in your feet and you mentioned that fellow who basically read greens with his feet.

[Bob_Huntley]

You will find that when a course has mountains around it, i.e., Palm Springs and the High Desert country in California, this is not an unusual occurrence.

One course really does come to mind. It is Crystalaire C.C., near Llano across the desert from Edwards Air Force base. The very first hole has a "gotcha" effect on every first time player. The ball really does seem to roll uphill.

Maybe Tommy Naccarato can attest to this as I haven't been there in over thirty years, but I must say it was a delight to play.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob - the far more ubiquitious than I Mr. Naccarato has likely been there more recently than I have, but I can attest that about 6 years ago, that gotcha was still in effect.

One of the Gotten
TH
 

[Rob_Waldron]

I see that Mayday has yet to reply about the 3rd hole at Rolling Green. The par three with the putt that moves uphill!

[Steve_Lemmon]

So, when this occurs, is it planned by the architect, or is it just a happenstance?   Did someone stand over a drawing board and devise this on purpose?  

[mike_malone]

 Rob,


    I think it  is not so much that people think it BREAKS uphill on #3 as much as they think it is FASTER uphill. Only at Rolling Green do we defy the laws of physics

[Andrew Summerell]

Apparently, in the late 60’s the Ponds Institute discovered a Surlyn magnet. Architects would embed a strip of this magnetic material underneath the surface of the green on the high side. Of course, this didn’t work for the better golfers because they used Balata golf balls, thereby creating the myth that pro golfers were better putters than the average club amateur.

The latest product along these lines is a Urethane repellent. It is mixed with the soil during green construction, but only repels the golf ball where the soil is exposed to the air, which of course is the 1 inch space between the cup & the greens surface. This doesn’t work in professional tournaments due to the inside of the holes being painted, therefore elevating the myth that professionals are better putters than the average club golfer.

[wsmorrison]

Rob,

You are right, when you are putting from the flanks of the green to the middle or far side, balls do appear to break uphill.  The illusion is created by the overall topography from elevated tee to green with a sharp fall-off behind.  Any slight break in that overall slope appears exaggerated so that while the slope remains front to back, it appears otherwise.  The toplines of the bunkers on either side are higher in the back than in the front adding to the misperception as does the small false front of the green.  It is a brilliant design and one that is also seen at the 4th at Cascades.  

I've seen a lot of funny putting on the 3rd green at RGGC.  You can tell the player what's going on but the eye tends to subordinate advice and balls sail past the hole front to back and stop well short of what you think back to front.

[Tim MacEachern]

What's the problem?  Putts can certainly break uphill.  It will happen when the green has strong grain and the grain is pushing up the hill or, even more so, slightly towards you and up the hill.

I've seen quite a few of these situations on quite a few courses.  The putt doesn't break down the hill (as you would expect) for most of the roll, but at the end, it can actually go uphill.

Count yourself a good reader of grain when you can read and make a putt that refuses to break down a slight incline because the grain is pushing it up the hill.

[Bill Gayne]

I was at Sea Island last week and on the Seaside course the greens are tif-eagle (sp?). What gave me difficulty was the direction of the grain. I've always looked at greens with the adage "if you poured water on the green which way would it flow." Well, on some of these greens an uphill putt may be down grain and as the caddie explained to me it was the prevailing direction of the wind that determined the direction of the grain. This maybe elementary for most on this website but it was a learning experience for me and one that again broke with conventional wisdom.