Seaview Marriott Resort?

[kevinT]

What is everyones opinion on both the Pines and Bay course at Seaview? From price, to conditioning to design?  Played this past spring and courses seemed to be in excellent shape.

[Willie_Dow]

Who laid out the original nine, thru the pines ?

[kevinT]

Toomey/Flynn first nine (1,2,12-18) second nine by Gordon.  Al Janis 6,7,8 and 15

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Stick with the Bay -- provided the mosquitos are tame when you are there. The Pines is simply woods overhanging many of the fairways and gets fairly predictable.

The Bay has some of the neatest small greens and although the course isn't long it can provide a mean streak when the gusts are blowing off the nearby Bay.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

Flynn's holes 1 and 2 are today's hole 1 and 2, Flynn's 3rd and 4th are today's 12th and 13th, his 5th today's 14th, his 6th and 7th today's 17th and 18th, his 8th is today's 16th and his 9th is today's 15th (shortened to a par 3 from Flynn's original par 4).

Matt Ward's simplistic take on the Pines course is, in my opinion, inaccurate.  A review of his notes might be worthwhile.

Since Kevin has already played the two courses, I am sure he has formed his own opinions.  While the playing corridors are narrowed by trees, there are some interesting holes preserved and presented.  I think there is some mediocrity at the Pines course, some of it due to the changes over time, but there is some interest and it is worth playing; particularly Flynn's 4th, 6th and 8th (13, 17 and 16).  Of course, Flynn's versions of the existing holes differ a bit from what was there today, for instance the second hole had a diagonal bunker scheme on both the first and second shots that are minimized today by the changes.

But what do I know?  I haven't seen 2348 courses so my opinion  is deemed meaningless by some  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Wayne,

I have not played any of the three courses in years, but how would you "rank" Seaview in comparison to Atlantic City, all in their current condition.

PS. I played Sunnybrook rather than ACCC on the day that we talked about in the fall due to reality of logistics.

[Kyle Harris]

I've only played the Bay, and it was one of the most enjoyable experiences of my golf career. The greens were superb and I found the shortness of the course to be more than made up for in quirkiness. Think Lulu next to a bay.

Wayne,

Didn't Flynn do the bunker work on the Bay Course as well?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin T,

The Pines course was a terrific golf course until the new owners expanded the hotel facility and ruined some of the holes.

If given the opportunity, I would play it.

[Mark_Fine]

Lanent potential is the best description Kevin  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

As you know, I am not much of a believer in rankings which rankles some rankers    However, I would surely say you fuqued up by playing Sunnybrook rather than ACCC, and I mean big time!  Sunnybrook is a nice gentlemanly club but the course is not anything near the quality of ACCC.  But, as you said, logistics was the determining factor.

As for ACCC in comparison to Seaview Pines, I would play 8-2 ACCC over Seaview.  I'd probably play ACCC more, but I'd need a bit of variety...and humility by hitting into the trees a bunch at Seaview.  As for the Bay Course, I've only walked it yet it has more charm than anything else and far exceeds the Pines in the enjoyability factor.  If I had 10 rounds in the Absecon area I would play 6 at ACC, 2 at Pines and 2 at Bay.  

Does this help, Mike?

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I'm glad you brought up the bunker work at the Bay Course.  No, Flynn did not do the bunker work, that was what Ross was brought in to do.  Ross came in after the course was laid out to do the bunkers.  He may have made some other architectural changes at the time, I wouldn't be surprised, but the fact is, the original course was designed by Hugh Wilson and likely assisted by William Flynn.  By the way, Wilson and Flynn also worked together on a redesign of North Hills CC.  Its all in the book  

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Okay, I knew there was some sort of connection there, but that conversation with you is lost among the many we've had since.

Nice shamless plug, by the way.  

[wsmorrison]

The final additions to the Pocantico Hills chapter, a hole by hole analysis complete with anectdotes by the man that knows the course the best of anyone, ever is forthcoming.  Easy to guess his last name.  Everything else is done.  Now the layout and editing process begins.  The authors on the site have told me to a man that this is a long and painful process.  I hope it is tolerable.  While I don't want to see anything cut for the commercial edition, it will be for certain as it now stands at 644 pages without drawings and photographs.  I'll fight for an unabridged version limited edition 2 volume set.  They can do what they want for the commercial version, I'm too busy and have too little reserves to fight them too hard.

[michael j fay]

Seaview is a conundrum. There are hole drawings of the Bay course in the Tufts Archives. The problem is that they are not in the hand of Donald Ross.

Ron Whitten has proposed that the design of the Bay course was done by Hugh Wilson. He apparently has some drawings.

I think the only answer is to dig up Clarence Geist and interrogate him.

[wsmorrison]

Michael,

If Ron Whitten has drawings by Wilson of the Bay course, that would be the only Wilson drawings ever found.  I'll call him, though I do not think he does.  I was at the Tufts and asked about the course, I was informed there were no drawings.  Did they look familiar?  I guess I'll call them back and see if I can get copies.  If there's anything to report, I'll post.

[wsmorrison]

Ron Whitten never had any drawings.  His information about Wilson at Seaview was based on newspaper clippings that Pete Jones had and donated to the Tufts.  I'm calling them next.

[Mike_Cirba]

I seem to recall drawings of Seaview Bay displayed in their clubhouse.  I assumed they were Ross, but that was before Whitten uncovered the Wilson link, but they also looked like Ross to me (it's been about 10 years though).

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I'm talking to Michael Fay as I type (multi-tasking).  They have the copies of the drawings from Seaview at the Tufts where he is now.  The handwriting according to Michael is not Ross.  He thinks its Hatch.  Ross recommended changing a few greens and tees as well as the bunker work.    

[Kyle Harris]

If memory serves me correctly, the drawings are only of a few holes and are posted in the locker room. The comments on them seemed more indicative of changes made to an existing course.

[archie_struthers]

I also like the charm of the Bay Course and remember too fondly the lost holes on the Pines. Technology has to some degree made the Bay Course too short for the really good players, unless you do the right thing and disregard the par on the card!    

[redanman]

I prefer the charm, continuity, openness and golf-y feeling of the Bay course to the dis-jointed claustrophobic mis-directed routing and forgetability of the Pines.  

But I'll gladly play either

Bay:Pines::8-9:1-2

ACCC:Bay::8:2

How can I simultaneously agree with Wayne-O and Matty Ward?


p.p.s.  My Sunnybrook take: Disppoints at best.  

 The Gordons - never seemed to learn much at Flynn's heels.......

[wsmorrison]

"How can I simultaneously agree with Wayne-O and Matty Ward?"

Man, that is a puzzle.  Bay:Pines, just guessing since I haven't played the Bay, would be a crushing 7:3.  While we agree with Matt (imagine the rarity of that statement) that the Bay course is superior to the present iteration of the Pines course, from a look at old aerials and what is on the ground today, the discrepency between the Bay and the Pines disappears completely when considering original Pines 9 by Flynn with Ross of the same era.  

As for Matt Ward's contention that there is nothing worth seeing at the Pines, do you agree or disagree BillV?  I most heartedly disagree with his simplistic comment.

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

It's only simplistic when analyzed by a simplistic mind. Amazing you can have such a "detailed" opinion of the Bay having never played it. I'm so sorry I forgot your Wayne Morrison -- mea culpa on my part.

Gents:

Frankly, Marriott charges way too much for either course during the high time of the year -- particularly when compared to the likes of Twisted Dune.

The Pines is nothing more than an overly wooded collection of holes. If the mosquitos cooperate the time spent on the Bay is indeed the better choice to play.

The best thing about the Bay is that it gives the world's best female golfers an opportunity to play an old style course that too often are ignored in modern day golf. Kudos to the local communities for a first class event that is attended by a usually stellar field.

P.S. For those who want to see a few holes of unique substance I would also say a quick visit to McCullough's Emerald Links would be worth one's time. The 7th hole by Kay is quite reminscent of Lido's famed split fairway option hole.

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward said;

"The Bay has some of the neatest small greens..."

Matt:

You're not joking. There's one down there--I don't remember which hole, somewhere in the middle of the course that could be the smallest green I've ever seen.

Those purported Ross drawings at Seaview were in the hall last time I was down there. The Pro/general manager thought they were Ross. They seemed pretty elaborate to me, making me think they were Walter Erving Johnson.

Wayne:

In one of those agronomy letters was there not a mention that Wilson built the Bay course? I think I also remember Wilson talked about Pickering down there. Didn't he joke with Piper or Oakley that somehow Pickering managed to act the foreman down there without falling down drunk again and hurting himself. Seemed like it was after they had to let him go from Merion West for gettin' into the hair of the dog. Remember?

Also, as I recall, Seaview mentioned there was more than just a little Tillinghast bunkering on that Bay course.

[Craig Disher]

TEP and Matt,
Some of the small greens are that way because of maintenance. I remember one of the holes, the one farthest north, seemed to have a tee box immediately behind it. We thought it was a back tee for the following par 3 that had been removed because it was too near the road. When we looked at the drawing you mentioned and I looked at an early aerial, it was apparent that the flat area was actually part of the original green - which was about 30-40% larger in the 1930s. Many of the others are also smaller, although not to that extent.

I was disappointed by the intensive tree planting throughout the Bay. At times, I thought I was playing the Pines.