[peter_p]

       The current governor of Ohio got nailed for accepting rounds of golf at Inverness and not reporting them. It helped that the donor was the main cog in the coin scandal.
       

[Dan King]

There is an easy answer to all this. Make all politicians Golf Digest (or pick your magazine) rankers and they can play all the free golf they want... and it costs nobody anything.

Dan King

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
 --P. J. O'Rourke

[Paul Payne]

Are we talking politicians or businessmen here? There is a difference (no joke). The ethics laws that apply to congress do not apply to businesses whether public or private. Every company creates its own code of ethics in this regard.

My point is that many companies are already doing this on there own because of the seeming conflict of interest if their buyers are accepting rounds of golf from company "A"'s salesman.

It still happens but in my experience is far less frequent than it was 10 years or more ago.

 

I'm  not so sure this is the death knell for golf.

[peter_p]

    Politicians should not get on courses for free, or be reimbursed by the taxpayer. Outings should be reported, both to the ethics committee and the IRS. In business it is either a fringe benefit or an expense and should be reported as such. In either case it should be transparent.
    For privately held companies the CEO is the arbiter. For publicly held companies, it it the shareholders. There might be a few less whales out there, but its just a blip to the golf industry.

[Paul Payne]

Pete,

I agree 100%

[Doug Siebert]

John, or Jerry I think is qualified to answer...

Don't you need a public official, someone in the legislative or regulatory official office to have a bribe?   Business men paying for business men may be a tax issue, but not a bribery issue.  Isn't there a difference between buying a round for a local public works director or committee person who decides on awarding bids, and buying a round for the owner of the local tar supplier, or Cat buying one for you?

Business to business can have legal implications as well.  If some guy owns a business in Georgia and happens to be a ANGC member, and he tells the CEO of another company that if they sign a nice juicy contract with him he'll host him a couple times a year at ANGC, maybe he signs that contract and overpays by a few million.  What does he care, its not his money.  But the shareholders sure would, and if they found out they'd probably sue.

And I agree 100% with those who say that this should be reported by any public official.  And not just elected officials, it should be true for staffers, political appointees, and career civil service.  When I worked at the U of Iowa, all state employees were required to report anything we got with a value of over $3.  Any time I had IBM wanting to buy me lunch, I would have to report it.  It was easier to pay my own way rather than fill out the paperwork, so I guess the rules served their intended purpose, not that a $10 lunch would have swayed me on a $100K purchase decision

But I can see when you get up to a certain level where the favors can be worth a significant chunk of one's salary that things might start to look different for some people.  And in Washington, when everyone's doing it except John McCain and Russ Feingold, you probably start to feel like a fool for holding onto your morals while everyone around you is going on all these great trips.

[david h. carroll]

First and foremost, please do not let this discussion devolve into another "well, Bill Clinton did such and such" rant...I never joined in those and this matter is incomparrable.

As someone involved in the business of lobbying, or, as we are starting to call it in light of Abramoff, "public affairs consulting", I would only suggest to the members of the treehouse that you shouldn't broadbrush all lobbyists, er public affairs consultants, as sleazy nor should you have any reason to believe that John McCain and Russ Feingold are the only "good" guys in DC.  Just like in any business, there are always rotten eggs and always characters but there are always plenty folks to be held in high esteem for their integrity and honor.

Furthermore, as I see things from a career in the business of politics, if there wasn't such endemic voter apathy in this country, the power would be in the hands of the people entirely.  There would be no need for my services.

Now as to golf and politics, it is indeed like any other business development outing in that I have to advise my guests of the cell phone policy at my club!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Did anybody see the baseball cap Abramoff wore to plead guilty in Florida...First a fedora and now a baseball cap.  I know when he goes to jail if he wears a toupee it has to come off...Is this the real cover-up..

[david h. carroll]

I saw it...I think it was a VN logo

[RJ_Daley]

Mr. Carroll, I agree with your comments on voter apathy.  Yet, in a way it is a cause and effect thing.  Do voters stay away because the system is so stacked towards big lobby-money interests getting all of the elected officials attention because it is all about re-election and the money it takes to run?  

As a lobbiest, what would work better on an ethical basis.  You taking a congressman to play golf at a prestige course, or the congressman belonging to a club and taking you as his guest to pick your brain about the issues you represent?  Is the answer to the golf freebie, build a great course and clubhouse just for congress?

Hell, for what those guys are already throwing away on porkies like the bridge to nowhere, maybe 20 million for an actual congressional club would be a bargain.

[PThomas]

that hat was dorky, imho

[John Kavanaugh]

I just found a pic of JackA in his baseball cap and it is logoless.  This note on the same forum just can't be passed up.  The fedora is back...

The Fedora is Back!
In Stunning Fashion Statement Sure to Merit Worldwide Attention, DC GOP Lobbyist Brings Renewed Focus on Once-Popular Men's Headware Accessory!
Grass-Roots Group Offers to Help Buy Him More!

Not since Indiana Jones, has one man made such a bold statement about men's haberdashery! In a stunning photograph, flashed across the AP wires today, a well-known and well-connected GOP lobbyist by the name of Jack Abramoff has put the once-ubiquitous headware for men, known as the fedora, back on the nation's front pages!





Attaboy, Jack! The BRAD BLOG thanks you for waking up a fashion-stultified nation! The country relies on forward-thinking media icons like yourself to help keep our nation -- and our nation's capital -- from suffering under the oppressive malaise brought on by an all-too-timid crop of girlyman fashion mavens in DC!

Once thought to have been relegated to the fashion basement, the new statement by Abramoff is rumored to have caught a great number of DC lawmakers off-guard! Those who might have otherwise thrown out their old chapeau's are now rumored to have begun to "hold onto their hats" indeed!

Hooray Jack Abramoff! Thanks to you, the fedora is back! We think we'll buy ourselves one today! If you'd like help in buying a few more, please see this! We'll be happy to help any way we can! It's the least we can do to say thanks!

[Mike Hendren]

John,

Given the Barneyesque hat you wore when I visited VN I would not call the kettle black.



I call for a Pin The Hat On Abramoff contest for the Photoshoppers in the treehouse.  I say give him a bucket like The Faz.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Oops, I did it again...I have just been informed that JackA wore the black fedora because he is such a religious guy...I sorry for anyone I offended, again.

[david h. carroll]

RJD--I really don't think the two are intrinsically related...are voters apathetic b/c they think special interests control everything or is it because our systems of elections nationally are rather inefficient and widely varied/Americans have become a nation of disinterested observers in general except for Oprah and J-Lo watchers/modern democracy has never occurred before/or any other of a multitude of reasons??---the list could go on forever including the fact that maybe a lot of Americans are just plain lazy.

Sure I would love it if members of Congress had their own course and invited me as "expert advisor" to join their foursome, but it would be even better if all members actually played golf since, as you know, all of us who are addicted to the game are kindred spirits!

btw, bridge to nowhere didn't happen/wasn't funded and was even withdrawn by its chief sponsor.  

[Dan King]

david h. carroll writes:
I really don't think the two are intrinsically related...are voters apathetic b/c they think special interests control everything or is it because our systems of elections nationally are rather inefficient and widely varied/Americans have become a nation of disinterested observers in general except for Oprah and J-Lo watchers/modern democracy has never occurred before/or any other of a multitude of reasons??

Any reason I can't pick both?

It should be completely illegal to give money or gifts to elected officials or anyone running for an elected position. That special interests have convinced the public it is a free speech issue just goes to show how powerful they have become. The same people that can convince you that you need a new driver every year can also throw money at most any candidate and convince voters that person is the answer. (More likely they can convince you the other guy isn't the answer.)

It isn't a free speech issue that you can't give the judge on your case a wad of money.

Yes, there are good people in the system, both as politicians and lobbyists, but they can't make up for a broken system. Much like the golf magazine rankings, the result will never be good as long as the system creating the result is so broken.

btw, bridge to nowhere didn't happen/wasn't funded and was even withdrawn by its chief sponsor.

Only because the media brought it to light. Had it remained in the dark like the politicians and lobbyists preferred it would be  getting built.

Dan King

A hat should be taken off when you greet a lady and left off for the rest of your life. Nothing looks more stupid than a hat.
 --P.J. O'Rourke

[Mike_Sweeney]

the result will never be good as long as the system creating the result is so broken.

Dan,

You are acting like a magazine rater.    Now tell us the solution or point to a better system?

[Dan King]

Mike Sweeney writes:
Now tell us the solution or point to a better system?

I thought I already did. Similar to the U.S. justice system, make it illegal to give money and gifts to politicians and wanna-be politicians.

Pretty simple answer. Enforcement would be a bigger issue, but not impossible.

Dan King

All the important lessons of life are contained in the three rules for achieving a perfect golf swing:
  1. Keep your head down.
  2. Follow through.
  3. Be born with money.
 --P.J. O'Rourke (Men's Journal, 1992)

[david h. carroll]

Dan-- I don't think any special interest has convinced anyone that gift giving is a right of free speech.  Remember that anyone has the right to petition government for any reason.  I think we could make convincing arguments that Congress, state and local governments as a whole are much less corrupt and the proccess much more transparent than at any other time in the last 100 years.  Sure there may still be a smoke filled room or two, but by and large with the advent of the media, the internet and near instantaneous communication, decisionmakers are more often than not wary of catering directly to any one specific interest.  They are afraid of the scandal, the press and losing their seat.  I see it every day.  Even though I may be life long buddies with some legislator, it does not mean he's gonna side with me/my client every time.  We hear "no" or "what do the other guys say" a lot more than "I agree with you and let me help"...actually, I'm not so sure I've ever heard that!!

[Mike_Sweeney]

I thought I already did. Similar to the U.S. justice system, make it illegal to give money and gifts to politicians and wanna-be politicians.

Dan,

But then don't you turn politics into a rich man's game as they are the only one's who can afford to run for office? The justice department heads (not staff) are political appointees not voted to office, they don't have to run.

I am amazed at what a good job that Mayor Mike Bloomberg has done here in NYC, but I doubt every rich guy will do as well?

[david h. carroll]

Ah yes, the back to the best of all possible worlds in PoliSci 101, The Benevolent Dictatorship!!

Sounds like some greens committees I know

[Dan King]

david h. carroll writes:
I don't think any special interest has convinced anyone that gift giving is a right of free speech. 

Obviously someone that never listened to the reaction of the McCain Feingolf Bill.  Ever listen to Rush?

Remember that anyone has the right to petition government for any reason. 

For some reason it helps a whole bunch if you include a bag of money.

Even though I may be life long buddies with some legislator, it does not mean he's gonna side with me/my client every time.  We hear "no" or "what do the other guys say" a lot more than "I agree with you and let me help"...actually, I'm not so sure I've ever heard that!!

Yet for some reason lobbies still like to give gifts and contribute to campaigns. Wonder why that is?

Mike Sweeney writes:
But then don't you turn politics into a rich man's game as they are the only one's who can afford to run for office?

Works better than the system we have now.

Sure there are problems with making money given to politicians illegal, but not as bad as the problems we currently have. We can fix the problems. A system designed to be corrupt can't be fixed.

This is not all that dissimilar an argument from the one about rankings not working because the magazines leave it to the courses to pay the freight. Here we leave it to special interests, the worst possible choice.

Dan King

In our brief national history we have shot four of our presidents, worried five of them to death, impeached one and hounded another out of office. And when all else fails, we hold an election and assassinate their character.
 --P.J. O'Rourke

[Jim_Kennedy]

Once I lobbied my state rep and my state senator in an effort to alter legislation and administrative action.
No lunch, no golf, no casino trip, no access fee.

You don't usually need 'bribes' to get someone to do the right thing, conversely,.........................!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney writes:
But then don't you turn politics into a rich man's game as they are the only one's who can afford to run for office?

Works better than the system we have now.

Can you give us some examples?

Sure there are problems with making money given to politicians illegal, but not as bad as the problems we currently have. We can fix the problems.

So Dan, it is back to my same questions - how do we fix the problems? What is your solution? Specificity is the key to problem solving.

[david h. carroll]

Dan King--

You have gotta be kidding me on the "ever listen to Rush" thing...have you ever maxed out on OxyContin?

Special interests were not arguing against McCain Feingold campaign finance reforms...as a matter of fact, most givers of campaign cash, which by the way are mostly coporate folks, not lobbyists, were for the campaign finance reform as people were sick and tired of the spiraling cost of elections and campaigns and continually being hit up by candidates for cash!  Corporate America wanted McCain Feingold and it was republicans who argued against it on freedom of speech grounds---see Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

Again, more of the broad brush from the treehouse.  THERE ARE NO BAGS OF CASH.  SPIRO AGNEW LEFT THE BUILDING A LONG TIME AGO.

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