SH v. WH Match Play (How close to do you think?)

[Tony_Chapman]

OK, Mr. Gracely and I have been having a WH, SH banter this morning and afternoon about the merits of each course.

Doing match play, I have SH winning 1-up. Is this too close?

My text from earlier is as follows:

#1 – Sand Hills has to get this one.

#2 – Pretty even. SH is much more difficult to play, but you can play way more shots into the 2nd green at WH. Were it not for the all-world green complex I would give this to WH. SH 2up.

#3 – I think the third at WH is a better par-5 than the 3rd at SH is a par-3. SH 1 up.

#4 – It’s SH’s best 4-par against the weakest par-3 at WH. SH 2up.

#5 – Tell me that bunker set up and the blind green at WH isn’t the coolest on the course. I think so. SH 1up.

#6 – I don’t know what it is, but this is just a vanilla par-3 for me at SH. At WH, it’s the best par-5 I have ever played without a bunker. All Square.

#7 – Two great short par-4’s. I think the centerline bunker at WH, coupled with a wonderful green complex trumps the hole C&C built. WH 1up.

#8 – I don’t think this is a contest. While the SH green complex is very neat, the 8th at WH is the second best par-4 on the course and a great into the wind hole; especially if you are hitting a running shot to the green with a hybrid into the summer wind. WH 2-up.

#9 – With the added length the par-3 at WH is very interesting. I think the 9th at SH was a fine way to get back to the porch, but it can be rather mundane. WH 3-up; is this really happening?

#10 – The downhill fun ride at SH is too good for the hole at WH, though it may be one of the better par-4s. WH 2-up.

#11 – For some reason, the three starting holes on the back side at SH run together for me. Plus, I love the little pitch shot on the 11th at WH. WH 3-up.

#12 – For the cool fairway with its humps and bumps, I’ll go with SH. WH 2-up.

#13 – As good as the 13th at WH is, the one as SH is better. WH 1-up.

#14 – Two wonderful par-5’s and as much as I love WH’s the one at SH with that tiny little green is the better hole. All Square.

#15 – There aren’t enough holes in golf like the 15th at WH. That is all I’m going to say. WH 1-up.

#16 – Ok, this is the toughest for me. The 16th at WH is, to me, the best hole on the golf course. The 16th at SH is an all-world par-5. I’m going to chicken out and say we halve the 16th.

#17 and #18 – You can’t in any way shape or form argue for the 17th and 18th at WH over the SH finish.

So, Sand Hills wins 1 up in match play.

I can probably be swayed one way or the other on the merits of WH and it not stacking up quite as good to SH as I think it does, but I think it's worth discussing.

"The clubhouse on the hill and the way this golf course plays reminds me of being at Shinnecock." -- Tom Huckaby on the third fairway at Wild Horse, June 2005

[Paul Payne]

Having never played WH I have no way to compare, but I would venture to guess if their #3 par five is better than SH #3 par three it must be great.

I love SH #3. it is a very challenging hole to get close to the pin, especially when the pin is middle to front on the right side of the green. Often requires a bank shot off the berm to roll it in close. I just think it is a hole that requires a lot of creativity especially for a par three.

[Tom Huckaby]

OK, now far be it from me to take credit where it's not due, but man I think I said that quote you're attributing to Sweeney.

 

If not, well then color me Goodale - claimer of all things said or written in his presence.

As for the match play, god help me I do love WH so.  I really do.  But there's only one greatest course on the planet.  Methinks you're overly swayed by "it's too tough of a walk" Gracely.

My take is below.

#1 – Sand Hills has to get this one.
OK

#2 – Pretty even. SH is much more difficult to play, but you can play way more shots into the 2nd green at WH. Were it not for the all-world green complex I would give this to WH. SH 2up.
OK

#3 – I think the third at WH is a better par-5 than the 3rd at SH is a par-3. SH 1 up.
OK

#4 – It’s SH’s best 4-par against the weakest par-3 at WH. SH 2up.
OK

#5 – Tell me that bunker set up and the blind green at WH isn’t the coolest on the course. I think so. SH 1up.
sure it's the coolest on the course - it's just not a better golf hole overall than #5 SH, which is one hell of a great hole in its own right.  I'd give this a half.  SH remains 2up


#6 – I don’t know what it is, but this is just a vanilla par-3 for me at SH. At WH, it’s the best par-5 I have ever played without a bunker. All Square.
whoa!  Did you even look at the green?  Good lord man that's one of the greatest greens I have ever seen - the variety of chips and pitches and putts there is infinite.  As great as #6 WH is - and it is great - there's no way it's better than #6 SH.  Generous half here, only because I do love the public courses.  SH remains 2up.  

#7 – Two great short par-4’s. I think the centerline bunker at WH, coupled with a wonderful green complex trumps the hole C&C built. WH 1up.
Holey moley now you've gone off your rocker.  #7 SH is among the world's great driveable par 4s.  #7 WH is again a great hole - and the centerline bunker is cool - but no way is it better than #7 SH.  Again, a generous half for WH that really ought to go to SH.  SH remains 2up.  

#8 – I don’t think this is a contest. While the SH green complex is very neat, the 8th at WH is the second best par-4 on the course and a great into the wind hole; especially if you are hitting a running shot to the green with a hybrid into the summer wind. WH 2-up.
I cannot believe what I am reading.  Hell yes it's no contest, but in the other direction!  Again, you're talking one of the world's greatest greens, and most fun golf holes to play - AT SAND HILLS.  #8 WH is a very fine hole, better than most other #8s - just not this one.  SH 3up.

#9 – With the added length the par-3 at WH is very interesting. I think the 9th at SH was a fine way to get back to the porch, but it can be rather mundane. WH 3-up; is this really happening?
No, it's not.  You're high as a kite on these last few holes.  #9 SH is mundane?  Good lord the teeshot is very fun, requiring a choice and good execution, and it's another wonderful green.  Again, #9WH is a good hole, just not better.  One more generous half that surely could and should go to SH.  SH 3up.

#10 – The downhill fun ride at SH is too good for the hole at WH, though it may be one of the better par-4s. WH 2-up.
Fair enough.  SH 3up

#11 – For some reason, the three starting holes on the back side at SH run together for me. Plus, I love the little pitch shot on the 11th at WH. WH 3-up.
methinks you really need to play SH again - maybe this is what you're gunning for here?  11 is yet another great hole that exceeds it's counterpart at WH.  I've now got it SH 4up/

#12 – For the cool fairway with its humps and bumps, I’ll go with SH. WH 2-up.
sanity returns.  SH 5up

#13 – As good as the 13th at WH is, the one as SH is better. WH 1-up.
whew.  There was gonna be mayhem if you didn't see this.  SH 6up

#14 – Two wonderful par-5’s and as much as I love WH’s the one at SH with that tiny little green is the better hole. All Square.
why are you so sane on the back and high on the front?  Your buzz must have worn off at the porch - either that or picked up, as the case may be.    SH 7up

#15 – There aren’t enough holes in golf like the 15th at WH. That is all I’m going to say. WH 1-up.
agreed.  SH 6up

#16 – Ok, this is the toughest for me. The 16th at WH is, to me, the best hole on the golf course. The 16th at SH is an all-world par-5. I’m going to chicken out and say we halve the 16th.
wuss.  16 WH is a fine golf hole; 16SH is world-class. SH 7up

#17 and #18 – You can’t in any way shape or form argue for the 17th and 18th at WH over the SH finish.
correct.  SH wins 9up.

Note the comments are me just having fun with you.  But my assessment remains.

TH

[Paul Payne]

TH,

Couldn't have said things better. I had also forgotten for a moment what a great hole #8 is. I like the ground game into that green as well especially with the pin in the swale just behind the bunker, it creates an awesome shot off the right side berm to roll it in.

Great comments.

[Tony_Chapman]

Huck - Thanks for the fine assessment. Sand Hills wins 6 and 5 for you. I'm not going to argue any of your points. Apparently, I am a moron.

I've been to SH twice, played 77 holes there (all be it 10 years apart) and for the life of me, I can tell you every little thing I love about WH (I've only played 90 holes there) and I struggle with the very things you point out about the closing stretch of the front nine.

I can honestly tell you I've always had trouble remembering the key details of holes 6-12 at SH, save the #7 is a very cool short par-4. Maybe it's because it's the repetitive nature of the 2-shot hole for me, I don't know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

I think both courses are terrific.

Comparing courses has never appealed to me, especially when people compare holes with differing pars.

In addition, extracting a single hole for comparison, detaches it from the other holes.  This disconnect doesn't allow one to consider the green to tee walks from the previous and to the next hole.

I loved Wild Horse and Sand Hills.

If I was confined to playing both of them for the rest of my life I wouldn't object.

Comparing golf courses like SH and WH is a little like the exercise of a  comparison between your mother, your wife and your daughter.

You love them all, though in different ways, and you recognize their strengths and weaknesses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tony - well no one (except Pat Mucci) is a moron due to anything he says on here.    Let's just call this a difference of opinion.

I do find it odd you can't recall details of holes 6-12 at SH - to me each hole is very memorable and I could go into great detail about each and every one.  As for any repetitive nature, well... to me there is none.  I guess you mean that each of 7 and 8 are shortish par fours... that is true... but the holes could not be more different, in how they play, how they look, how they ARE.  Same goes for 10-11-12.

Just for reference, I've played 11.5 rounds at SH, 3 at WH.  I can recall great detail about each - my memory does suck, but not about great golf courses.  

And yes, SH is clearly the superior course, to me anyway.  Just please understand that is absolutely NO knock on WH.  As I say, there is only one greatest course on the planet.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well speak of the devil.  Mucci arrives.

 And what a candy-ass wishy-washy California dreaming answer he gives us.  I can't believe it.  What, have we reversed roles today?

I loved both courses too.  But jesus H. Christ of Joe Montana, I could have written that tripe myself.  I am ashamed of you, and for you.

And I also admire how far you've come.  Of course every word you wrote is correct.  But I am giddy at how much I have taught you.  Well done.  I can now die happy.
 

[RJ_Daley]

1  SH 1up
2  tie SH  1 up
3   WH even
4  SH 1 up
5  WH even
6   tie even
7   tie even
8   tie even
9    WH 1 up

10  SH even
11  tie even
12  WH 1 up
13  SH even
14  WH 1 up
15  WH 2 up
16  tie WH 2 up
17  SH WH 1 up
18  tie WH 1 up

alternate match
first par 3 #3SH vs #4WH = tie
second par 3 #6 SH vs 9 WH* = WH 1up
third par 3 #13 SH* vs 11 WH = SH even
fourth par 3 #17 SH* vs 13 WH = SH 1 up

first par 4 #2 SH* vs 1WH = SH 2 up
second par 4 #4 SH* vs 2WH = SH 3 up
third par 4 # 5 SH vs #5 WH* = SH 2 up
forth par 4 # 7 SH vs 7 WH* = SH 1 up
fifth par 4 # 8 SH vs 8 WH tie = SH 1 up
sixth par 4 #9 SH vs 10 WH tie = SH 1 up
seventh par 4 # 10 SH vs 12 WH tie = SH 1 up
eighth par 4 # 11 SH vs 15 WH* = even
ninth par 4 # 12 SH vs 16 WH* = WH 1 up
tenth par 4 # 15 SH vs 18 WH tie = WH 1 up

eleventh par 4 # 18 SH odd par 4 out  (see below)***

first par 5 # 1 SH* vs 3 WH = even
second par 5 # 14 SH vs 6 WH tie = even
third par 5 # 16 SH* vs 14 WH + SH 1 up (ever so slightly)

***fourth par 5 # 17 WH odd par 5 out VS # 18 SH odd par 4 out is tie =
SH 1 up by a nose!!!  

[Tom Huckaby]

Hi Dick:  I was hoping - and shuddering - that you would see this.

Fair to say I have a little difference of opionion from you on this, also - just about every single hole!  But that is to be expected - your love for WH is only slightly well-known.

 

Keep the faith.

TH

[ed_getka]

Tony,
   Thanks for the comparison, but it illustrates the different strokes for different folks saying.
   I just can't imagine how you get #4 SH being the best par 4 on the course, and there are no holes at WH that can match #7 SH. Fortunately you redeemed yourself by choosing #14 SH as the better par 5.
   Why do you think #4 SH is the best par 4 on the course?

BTW, I love WH and got up at 4am this summer on a cross country driving vacation to get in a 2 hour round before a shotgun went out. That is how much I like WH, but SH is my favorite course.

[RJ_Daley]

Huck, I never really thought that the match game was too good of a measure straight up.   I like my alternate match up of par 3s 4s and 5s to like pars on the oposing course better.  

Yet, without an explanation of why one judges as they do, it still has little significance.  

I'll try to explain myself on the alternat match play thinking...

first par 3 at SH is longish bunkerless to a potato chip green.  I like WH 4th better because it is well bunkered, NADER style with more interesting kick points along the left side, and equally good pin positions, with one cool back right pin at WH that is better than any other pins on # 3 at SH.

the second par 3 at SH is 6 and frankly 9 at WH, with the false front, and either played at the old 150-55 yard or new 180 yard tees blows 6 away at SH.  While both have partially hidden elements up the left side, WH's 1 visable and 1 hidden bunker and exciting play from them or native grass on shots missed left are just way more fun to play that 6 SH.

the third par 3 at SH is 13 skyline green with a totally demanding long shot, while the oposite demand is put on the delicate short and wonderfully bunkered and contoured 11th at WH.  I'll have to go with the SH because of degree of difficulty, but not really by much on the thrill factor.

the fourth par 3 of 17 SH vs 13 WH isn't even close, as I am absolutely certain you will agree.

par 4s SH 2 WH 1 = well the opener at WH is cute but not difficult as SH 2, which is more or less skyline and very contoured.  

#4 SH vs 2WH is again not even close...

#5 SH vs 5 WH = a nod to WH because it is just unique with enough challenge off the tee, maybe even 3W, but with the inverted bunker and a ticklish second shot and tricky green, it is a gem.

#7 SH vs 7 WH is a slight edge to WH.  SH is a drivable par 4 as is WH in strong wind.  I even got it to the front left bunker at WH on a 40MPH gust and firm LZ (as always)  But the tee ball has a good chance to land in Dan's mid FW A-hole off the tee at WH,  and the second to a fall away front to back slope green is just more fun.

#8 SH vs 8 WH is a toss up.  8 is reportedly Ben's favorite at SH, and the boomerlike green and varied approach strategy from high left side or lower head on or right side is just plain fun.  But, 8 at WH is a very strong par 4, both off the tee and the second shot to a tricky Maxwell roll style green that also has interesting slope high left to down front right to bunkers.  I gotta say tie here.

#9 SH vs 10 WH is another tie in my book.  SH with the tee ball shot through the notch is exciting, and WH can be slightly blind up right where a blind right side rough bunker lurks.  The green at WH is bunkerless, yet more fun to approach due to contours than the more defined greensite at SH 9.  

#10 SH vs 12 WH is tie.  The tee ball at SH is as wide and varied as any on the course, plenty of fun.  WH tee shot has a blind bunker over the right slightly blind side leaving some apprehension to the golfer who hits a good drive up that side.  A big tee ball can run through the FW up middle and left, either into native or bunkers there.  There is an aiming top shot bunker also, and the downhill nature of the tee shot is one that you can choose to bite off vs the wideness and high vs low fairway LZ choice atSH 10.  The approaches are high in thrill factor though different looks, and both greens are well sited and contoured.  10 approach from high left side is pretty much a blind thriller. This is a tough call for me because I like 12 WH so much.

11 SH vs 15 WH, well the short par 4 at WH is everyone's fav, and possible as good as 10 Riv.  SH 11 is another skyline approach and is a great hole, but this one goes to WH for sheer fun and ticklishness approaches to the green.

12 SH vs 16 WH.  WH wins, and it is a winner by a long shot with mid FW drivable bunker off tee, lots of choice off tee, and demanding second to elevated green of great contour and devilish orientation high left side to lower front right and great bunkering.  At 445 and into prevailing wind, this is one hell of a hole at WH.

15 SH vs 18 WH.  SH is a ball buster, cross into prevailing wind, and a great fairway roll off tee and partially blind green approach to bunkerless green.  I love it, but... 18 WH is an exceptional hole off the tee with carryable FW bunker left, hugh blow-out bunker up right rough LZ distance, then another fw bunker for short knockers on second approach, with excellent green orientation and bunkering front left and back right, great green contouring and high bounce in or kick plate for ground game from right approach.  gotta go be diplomatic and wishy washy and declare a tie.

par 5s 1 SH vs 3 WH, goes to SH as one of the all time great opening holes.  Yet, 3 WH is a contender in that it has the ominous bunker group off tee, and excellent mid FW bunker on second shot LZ with a great green also guarded in front by boomerlike bunker and excellent contours.  But SH it is...

SH 14 vs 6 WH is tie.  While WH is bunkerless, the green approach is very tricky, and you can try to fly the green or run one on with a very ticklish bounding shot from right side approaches.  The false front and steep contour make this one very exciting green.  Both holes are not that tough to drive or play second shots, but the green at WH is darn good.  SH strenght is the more rolling FW, yet even than, not by much. tie

SH 16 vs WH 14.  slight edge to SH but not by much.  SH 16 is the long one into the wind, and the awesome blow out bunker to bite off.  The second, if you land in 1rst LZ safely is not too tough.  But again that sets up an exciting approach.  14 at WH is very good however.  The widest FW in Nebraska off the tee, yet the orientation can suck you into native left rough, and the approach over a carry mid FW bunker and a green with all sorts of funny contours and hidden rear bunker is just a riot. But, SH by a nose...

The odd holes out are #18 par 4 at SH and #17 par 5 at WH.  I see them tie.  The vast waste land off tee at SH is not that tough to stay right of, and the approach is very defined into the green.  WH over the hill tee ball can make it to a mid FW bunker, and has very different approaches depending on if you are in rt or left 1rst LZ.  The right side is guarded well by bunkers and the open right side is tempting to go for in 2.  I like them both equally...

[A_Clay_Man]

I wont get into this until next year. But, I am curious to see  HUck convince Dick "SH REGION" Daley that he is wrong.

As I've stated before, the locals I met there back in ought three opined that day in day out they preferred WH. Why? The playability of WH versus the penality of SH. I think they feared giving up the game, facing those massive bunkers on a daily basis.

[RJ_Daley]

I'll tell you what, I can't wait for fellows that have played SH multiple times, to have a go at BallyNeal and give some candid match play comparisons.  The next few years are going to generate some barn burner discussions, I think...

[ed_getka]

Dick,
   Organic Brain Syndrome must be setting in if you think #14 SH is a tie with WH #6.  Please spell out the weaknesses of #14 SH? I would say the tee shot isn't the most demanding in the world but a second or third shot into #14 requires some darn good golf, that I just don't see at #6 WH.

[RJ_Daley]

Both 6 WH and 14 SH are generally into the prevailing wind.  But at 550 WH and 510 SH, on calm days, it usually is still a 3 shotter at WH, while the big long fellows can get home at SH.  (exception noted to Brad Swanson, who can take it agressively up right rough line tee shot, catch a down slope and have an iron into the green second shot- but he is an ape )WH is not a hard second (why do I keep pushing right into right rough?  The lay up at SH is easier, I think.  And the third is more ticklish and more options at WH.  That green is the real equalizer.  I have seen people (good players) putt off that green on their third putt at WH!  If I keep thinking about this, I might have to break my original tie and give the hole to WH...

Back to the Orange Bowl...

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

Ask them, if that had to play one course, day in and day out, which one would they choose ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - you really need to get over this right/wrong fixation.  These are opinions!  Why would I try to convince Dick he's wrong?  He can't be.  Nor can I.  Now when it comes to completely missing the point of a question, as it took my 7+ pages to get someone to see he was - which someone else never did - well then I'll try to convince them of their errors.  But quality of golf holes?  That's up to each of us to judge, how we see fit.  It is fun to offer differing opinions though.  As for the locals and their generalities of the two courses, do they really find Wild Horse NOT to be penal?  They must be damn good.  My take is Wild Horse is indeed overall the more penal course, due to the ball-gobbling rough.  Both courses are pretty wide - one just loses more stray balls at Wild Horse than at Sand Hills.   Perhaps these locals you talked to had just a little bias to a course they can play any time v. one that for them is so close but so far away?  

And of course I defer to Dick when it comes to knowledge of Wild Horse, given he lives for the course and I've played it but three times.  But then again, I have played Sand Hills more than he has... so it's not like I have to bow down and say NOTHING here.  

So in any event, yes, the match play way of comparison is certainly not the best.  So we'll leave that one be.  Fair to say I differ from some of Dick's assessments there, but no matter.

So doing it the more appropriate way, well... let's just say I disagree with some of Dick's assessments there also.  But just as it will be quite difficult to discuss Ballyneal with you when and if I ever see it - this being along the lines of it not being wise to discuss politics or religion in polite company - well, discussing this with Dick can do nothing but harm and no good, as I see it.  See, anyone who can say with a straight face that #6 WH is in the same league as #14 Sand Hills - and use the GREEN as the main reason for it - well.... we're just never going to see eye to eye, because I truly believe the green on #14 SH is among the greatest greens I have ever played anywhere.  #6 Wild Horse is neat for sure, but to me not in the same league.  See how that comes out as a knock on WH?  It isn't meant to be,for sure, as 6 WH remains a great golf hole.  But this is enough for me to see this isn't going to be a productive conversation, because to me this isn't even close.

So Dick, like I say, keep the faith.  Your love for WH remains inspiring and very, very cool.  I wish I had a course I felt that strongly about.

But I shall leave this be.  Like I say, no good can come of it.  Because I really do LOVE Wild Horse!  It is one hell of a great course.  Just please don't ask me to compare it to the course I find to be the best on the planet.

Not any more, anyway.  I regret my initial post to Tony, and I would delete it but what the hell, it's out there.

I should have played the politician like wussy Mucci.  

[RJ_Daley]

Huck, there is no way I take offense at any evaluation you express at comparisons of SH and WH.  Cripes I don't own the joint!

Perhaps the obvious way we see these holes different is in our playing ability.  I count 4.5 rounds and one exclusively walking and picture taking at SH since 1995.  I'm up to about 40-45 rounds at WH since 99.

This sort of brings up Pat's point of the day-in day-out concept.  If I lived in North Platte and had a membership where I COULD play SH every day I wanted, I really still do think I'd choose WH at least 2-1.

Now, our buddy Adam will have proximity to BallyNeal, and I wonder after a while which he will choose to play most frequently.  Although, that isn't correct either because he just won't be able to drop in at SH when ever he wants...  

But, he knows it well enough that after a while he'll have a take on the issue, I'm sure...

[A_Clay_Man]

TH-chill. I just said i would be curious.

However, there is another interesting thing about this thread, You insinuate that Tony is phishing for an invite, and call Mucci a candy ass wishy washy californian, or was that just his response you called that?

 

To call the 14th green the best you have ever seen is IMO not accurate. I would say the green is nothing too complex but the entire green complex is outstanding.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - in the words of a great man, chill.  I was just giving some friends a hard time.

Re the 14th, change it to green complex - my bad.  The 14th green complex is among the best I've ever seen.  I'm not all that up on GCA cliches and terminology.

Dick - no hassles man.  But as difficult as this is to type, Mucci was right.  This really does seem to be like comparing mothers, wives and daughters.

What I do remain curious about though is how you and Adam (and others I guess) seem to find SH so penal.  Believe me - and if you don't, ask Mucci - I am NOT that good of a player.  I truly did find WH to be more penal than SH - because of the lost-ball inducing high grass, which just isn't as present at SH.  Yes SH has those incredible bunkers, but it's not like those at WH are easy little ovals.  To me WH is the more penal course. Interesting to me you guys see it differently.

Oh well, bottom line is Wild Horse is a damn fine golf course - among the best I've played ihn the last five years.  If I lived in Nebraska I'd absolutely play it all the time for sure, and never tire of it.

But to say even if you were a member at SH you'd still play WH two to one,well... this is where we're not nearly on the same page.  And that remains OK.  We're just so far apart, well... I can't see what more need be said.

TH

[Jim Nugent]

One problem with match play is that one side can shoot 80, the other 70, yet the 80 wins the match.  Theoretically speaking, anyway.  

Suppose we use medal play.  Which course comes out on top?  

[A_Clay_Man]

Jim, WH wins in medal, since access is only a few Jacksons.
Even the members are restricted at SH to 12 groups a day. I wonder if that "rule" was adopted because of the cart traffic on fescue grass, or just minimizing crowds on the porch, and cabins?

Hopefully soon we will all know more about the origins of SH, specifically the turf.

For the record, I recently played the sixth at WH in a scramble. We were about 90 yards out on the right side. We had our choice of two balls to try for birdie. One was short of the green directly on the spine that the hole sat on, in the front. The other was pin high left. Well, we chose the wrong ball because it was the hardest par of the day, in a scramble.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - which ball did you take?

That is a great green - I don't envy anyone NEEDING to get down in two - or three - for money from where you were.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom As you probably know playing in a scramble with people you dont really know can sometimes be dicey. I like to include even the most novice (and we had two) in the decision making. I dont know why I do that I suppose I just dont want to come off as a know it all. And sometimes, I'm wrong. In this case, we shouldv'e played the ball on the spine. Trying to get the exact distance from the side was near imposs.