The line between great and goofy

[Will E]

Reading through Gib and George's book is a delight and brings back many wonderful memories. It also reminds me of a good friend and a heck of a player who thought I was nuts after I brought him over to play NGLA instead of going around Shinnecock for a second loop. (He finished about 30th two years later in the '95 Open at SH). Actually he knew I was nuts long before this.
His thoughts were that NGLA was tricked up, had too many blind shots and luck was too much of a factor. (he really liked 4,6,7,8,10,12,13,15 and 17. didn't like 3 at all.)
That said, how do you define the line between great and goofy?
What makes 3 a great hole?

[TEPaul]

Regarding NGLA's #3 (the Alps), this quote from the "World Atlas of Golf" may be helpful--

"How shortly after the gutta percha ball replaced the feather ball in the middle of the nineteenth century, blind golf holes were thought to be the last word in golf architecture. As a result, Prestwick, the proud possessor of the Himalayas (the short 5th) and the Alps (the long two shot 17th)--on both of them the green is hidden behind a Brobdingnagian sand dune--was regarded in the golf world as the 'creme de la creme'."

So, to answer your question of what's the line between great and goofy--maybe it's not much more than--"Time"!

[ForkaB]

The 17th at Prestwick is great.  The 3rd at NGLA is goofy.  That is the line.

[TEPaul]

ForkaB:

That's simply fascinating! Would you care to try to explain why?

[ForkaB]

It is all about proportion.  Deneuve vs. Parton.  San Franscisco vs. Los Angeles.  Vermeer vs. Rubens.

[redanman]

Here's an easier line located in South Jersey

Twisted Dune is great, Shoregate or Running Deer is goofy.
ForkaB is correct in his proportion similies, but not in his examples.  Alps at NGLA is supremely sublime, not fair, but sublime.

GREAT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FAIR.

Fair Golf is a uniquely American idea being exported to the rest of the golf world.  It is the Ebola virus of golrf, just as deadly and incurable.  

But that's a whole 'nother 5 page thread. (But we need some more folks from the general population to post.)

NGLA Alps is a great hole because of the proportion of reward to skillful execution.  There is also a stimulating, exciting bit of luck involved.  It is a lifetime in a golf hole.  Other than that it has nothing!

[ForkaB]

dear mr. redanman

climbing up over the hill and seeing the green of the real alps (prestwick), is like coming through the rainbow tunnel in marin county and seeing the simple beauty of san francisco.  walking around the hill and seeing the green of the 3rd at ngla is like coming over the tehachapi mountains and seeing the mindless sprawl of la.  Its green is to breasts as are dolly’s and its subtlety is to whole bodies as are rubens’ depictions of the same.  of course, as billy wilder once said, some like ‘em fat.

ps.  are you aware that there is a golf hole in scotland that bears your name?  It is to mr. mcdonald’s  copy at ngla as dolly parton is to san franscisco.  yes, he got it right, that time.

[redanman]

dear mr. redanman

climbing up over the hill and seeing the green of the real alps (prestwick), is like coming through the rainbow tunnel in marin county and seeing the simple beauty of san francisco

The rainbow tunnel is over rated, and I used to live there.  
chacon a son gout  We can agree to disagree.

[Mike_Cirba]

ForkaB;

So, you claim that the Alps at NGLA is goofy, and when pressed for a reason come up with some analogy involving Dolly Parton and Rubens?  

Are you implying that NGLA's Alps hole is fat and big-breasted??  I don't understand what you're getting at.

Perhaps you can tell us what you think should be changed there to make it great and not goofy?

[ForkaB]

Mr. C.

I'm waiting for somebody to answer Mr. Shooter's original question.  "What makes 3 a great hole?"

Until then, I'll just say that I think the green could be reduced to about 1/3 it's current size.  I should caution you that I have played the hole less than 20 times, so I am really not qualified to comment on this matter.

[Dan Kelly]

Reading through Gib and George's book is a delight and brings back many wonderful memories. It also reminds me of a good friend and a heck of a player who thought I was nuts that after I brought him over to play NGLA instead of going around Shinnecock for a second loop. (He finished 30th two years later in the '95 Open at SH).

Shooter --

Just curious: Who was this player?

No one finished 30th in the '95 Open. A bunch of guys finished T-28, and a bunch of guys finished T-36.

[TEPaul]

ForkaB:

Thank you for your Deneuve vs Parton analogy! What could be clearer?

Or on second thought--this could be clearer---

Proportion indeed!

It's definitely easier to loft a 3 wood into the wind over a recumbent Katherine than a recumbent Dolly!

[redanman]

I'm waiting for somebody to answer Mr. Shooter's original question.  "What makes 3 a great hole?"

I thought that I did.  You must have overlooked it.

[ForkaB]

"NGLA Alps is a great hole because of the proportion of reward to skillful execution.  There is also a stimulating, exciting bit of luck involved.  It is a lifetime in a golf hole.  Other than that it has nothing!"

many apologies, mr. redanman.  i mistook this for an exposition rather than an explanation.  i shall take this to my zen master, and not return to this thread until he has revealed your mysteries to me.

[redanman]

i mistook this for an expectoration rather than an explanation.  i shall take this to my zen master, and not return to this thread until he has revealed your mysteries to me.

not nice, except for a way to lose credibility here

Completely forgiven.

[TEPaul]

ForkaB:

I was going to explain in the detail you asked for what makes #3 NGLA great and not goofy, in my opinon, but seeing what you're saying about it, for the time being anyway, I would just say generally that the hole possesses that certain "controversialness" that is probably near the essence of what makes some truly great holes what they are!

In other words, many of the truly great holes of the world seem to have an unusual and enduring ability to span the entire spectrum of opinion--from being hated and panned to being respected, loved and admired!

This spectrum of opinion, to create it and how to create it was certainly not lost on some of the very best architects!

So for the time being, it should be just left for you to consider it as you do, the Parton compared to a Deneuve somewhere else or the green appearing to be the urban sprawl of LA compared to coming upon the 'simple beauty of San Fran' as an analogy to coming upon Prestwick's Alps green.

A hole like this is somehow able to continually elicit a wide spectrum of opinion and to do that it needs your opinion of goofy at one end of the spectrum just as much as it needs our opinion of great at the other end of the spectrum.

And apparently it's continuing to do that!

[ForkaB]

dear mr. redanman

many apologies for the very nasty typo in my last post.  i meant to say "exposition" rather than "expectoration."  i have edited the post to take out the offending word.  more detail would be appreciated, still.

MR. TEP

PLEASE DO "EXPLAIN IN DETAIL" WHAT IS GREAT ABOUT THE HOLE, IF NOT FOR ME THAN FOR MR. SHOOTER AND HIS FRIEND.

[Philippe_Binette]

Great is unfair.

Life is great because it is unfair...
Golf is great because it is unfair...

[TEPaul]

Perhaps,

Life is great because it's unfair....
and,
Golf is great because it's unfair...
but,

never underestimate the "all things are possible" attitude of the American  and the American golfer....

He thinks he can eventually overcome and correct that problem too!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shooter & ForkB,

# 3 at NGLA = Great:

I would start with the mulitiple option tee shot.

One is presented with a very wide fairway, partially protected by a diagonal, short left to far right bunker.

The risk/reward on the tee shot is fabulous, the options unlimited.

Hit it left, requiring a shorter carry over the cross bunker, and you have a longer shot, over the alps, with a longer carry required.  In addition, bunkers and rough can also catch an errant ball.

Hitting it straight requires a longer carry, but if you don't hit it far enough a downhill side hill lie confronts you.  Hit it longer and you're rewarded with an uphill lie for the shot over the alps, but care must be taken not to hit it too long into the bunker of rough.

If you can hit it right, over the long carry and you can be rewarded with TEPaul's turboboost, up the slot, leaving you a shorter shot, sometimes leaving you with a view of the right side upper green.  But, that requires an extraordinary shot, and should you miss it, the woods, bunker or heavy rough increase your challenge.

The second shot is great, and so dependent upon your lie, based upon where you hit your tee shot.
The need to get the ball airborne, the need to keep it airborne weigh heavily on your mind as you stand over your shot.  You are also somewhat worried about direction and distance.  While distance can be ascertained, direction remains questionable despite a directional indicator, which is more general and dependent on angles then specific.

TEPaul's next favorite "greens within greens" is the next destination.  You, horribly, mistakenly indicated that the green should be smaller.  The genius of the design is the need to hit to the "green of the day", and the diverse challenge offered if you should miss it.

# 17 at Prestwick, while wonderful, is a pitch and putt hole.
# 3 at NGLA is a big, expansive, longer, more demanding hole.

At # 17, hit a good drive, and the balance of the hole presents a diminished challenge.

At # 3 at NGLA hit a good drive, and the challenge just begins.  Hit a good second, and substantial challenge remains.

# 3 at NGLA is great because it tests your game with EVERY shot you hit, until you have holed out.

That is what makes it both unique and great.

[Dan Kelly]

# 3 at NGLA is great because it tests your game with EVERY shot you hit, until you have holed out.

That is what makes it both unique and great.

Is that what makes EVERY great hole great?

(Let's leave "unique" -- the most overused adjective in America -- out of it.)

[ForkaB]

Thank you Patrick.  I hope Mr. Shooter and his friend are listening too.

My qualm about the green size was based on the fact that unless you really know the hole and are prepared to climb the hill (or send your caddy up there and trust him), your second shot can be a roll of the dice.  At 17 Prestwick, at least you know that if you hit it over the hill you will not be far away from the hole.  Maybe in a bunker, but not facing a 120 foot putt.

Dan Kelly's point is well taken.  Exactly what golf hole does not "test(s) your game with EVERY shot you hit, until you have holed out."  I've never seen such a hole.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly's point is well taken.  Exactly what golf hole does not "test(s) your game with EVERY shot you hit, until you have holed out."  I've never seen such a hole.

But that wasn't my point, ForkaB! That wasn't my point at all!

Really, I didn't HAVE a point (except about the overuse of "unique").

The only point of my post was to raise, for discussion, the possibility that Patrick had perfectly articulated what makes a "great" hole: that it tests your game with every shot, until you've holed out.

That sounded, to me, like a pretty good definition of what makes a great hole great, and I was hoping others might give it some thought and chime in on whether they agree that that's a good definition, or whether they know of great holes that DON'T test your game on every shot. (There are plenty of holes that don't test your game on every shot. Tens of thousands of them, I'd guess.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

ForkaB,

It's the relative SEVERITY of the TEST that differs substantially from hole to hole.

Take for example, the hole after next at NGLA, # 5.
Would you equate the challenge of the shots necessary to score par on the same level, or would you agree that the severity of the test is much greater at # 3 and # 4 ?

One is provided with a directional marker at # 3.

The beauty of the hole is the mental uncertainty it creates within the golfer, starting at the tee and only ending when they have putted out, coupled with the difficulty in executing what could be called unusual shots on an unusual hole.

I think it's a great hole.

[redanman]

To try to be more specific

The Alps at NGLA has extremes of dimension to be sure.  It is a very large playing field for a par 4 with progressively greater rewards as to where you place your first, second, third, fourth... shots.

Even lay-ups and recoveries are proportionately rewarded, and this aspect of quality is very rare indeed!

AS for the size of the green, the fact that it is blind actually encourages the design to have such a large green.  In those rare instances when one gets into position where the approach is only partially obscured, there is once again more proportional reward yet again.

Those not liking blindness, quirkyness nor long, undulating putts will, of course, feel otherwise.

I for one think the hole is sublimely wonderful.