Billy Bell research

[Troy Alderson]

Where can I get some information about Billy Bell and son?  Junior designed Kah-Nee-Ta front nine in the early 70s and changes have occurred over the years by an unknowing superintendent and general managers.  Several bunkers have been removed and irrigation added to native rough areas.  The routing has been changed slightly when we expanded to 18 holes and when closeness of parralel holes interfered with each other.

Is the Bell Jr. design worth restoring?  This is no Riviera and may be too far gone.  In fact, documentation is very poor as to the original design.  Was Junior known for great designs or is a dozer in order?

Troy

[Pete Lavallee]

Was Junior known for great designs or is a dozer in order?

Troy

Troy,

 The work of William Francis Bell (Jr.) is seldom associated with the word greatness. He did build alot and some are very functional, as a great majority of his work is on the public side here in So. Cal. His best works would include Sandpiper, Torrey Pines (North and South), Industry Hills (Ike and Babe), Los Verdes, Rancho Bernardo (INN and CC) which are all public venues that allow average golfers to navigate the course with little difficuty and provide some interest to the better player. Some people like vanilla ice cream and if you do Billy Bell Jr. just might be your cup of tea.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Pete
In keeping with the season, you are giving and generous.  Good for you.

[Troy Alderson]

Pete,

Thank you for the comment about Bell.  This golf course may undergo a renovation/remodel/redesign within the next 5 years and I would like to know if the front nine design is worth saving and restoring.  It appears that is not the case.  The golf course is much too crowded with holes and there is more property to use to expand.

Troy

[Aidan Bradley]

I believe La Cumre Country Club in Santa Barbara is also a William Bell design. Built in 1928 it has some wonderful and very challenging holes.

Aidan.

[Aidan Bradley]

Sorry about the typo, its La Cumbre CC.

[Pete Lavallee]

Aidan,

You have made the all too familiar mistake of confusing the father William Park Bell, with the son William Francis Bell. The former was very talented, was entrusted with many good sites, which led to interesting courses, and was priviledged to work with many other talented architects; including George C. Thomas and Tillinghast. William Jr. is more famous for riding his father's coat tails and churning out some fairly mundane work. He did most of his work in the "Dark Ages", and was asked to produce mainly public venues; perhaps this accounts for what today is percieved as less than exciting.

Troy,

I needed to respond to your original post within a microsecond in order to beat Lynn's, which I knew was coming. Obviously he has embrassed the spirit of the season as well.  

Truely, the only William Francis Bell course I've ever played that should be restored/maintained is Torrey Pines North. Of all his courses that I've played it really is the only one worth saving. In fact we've had quite the firestorm this year over the City of San Diego's attempt to have Ree's Jones update the course to "improve the drainage on the greens" (read improve the drainage of $$$ from the tourist's pockets). It  is quite well documented on Geoff Shackelford's web site if your interested. The public golfers basically rebelled at the idea of another Torrey South, charging ridiculous money for golf that just can't be enjoyed from the white tees (6,880) by average players, and the City backed down for now. They will however, be shortening the 18th to a par 4 to allow for the new clubhouse; situated near the base of the driving range.  

[Aidan Bradley]

Pete,

Thank you for the admonishment. As a "Newbie" hopefully you will give me a pass on this one. Promise to engage brain before opening mouth the next time. Appreciate the FYI.

Cheers.

[Jay Carstens]

Easy mistake to make....

I have: William Park “Billy” Bell 4/19/1886 Canonsburg, PA-1953 Pasadena, CA.  ASGCA founding member; President 1952.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Welcome Aidan

outstanding photographs

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com/home.asp

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pete,
....public venues that allow average golfers to navigate the course with little difficuty and provide some interest to the better player???

Quite obviously you haven't played the course the way it was designed, where any ball of the fairway was a lost ball in 5 inch deep rough and fairway bunkers situated in front of big, huge bushy trees that made extraction a near impossibility.....

Today, the course has been softened and will be somewhat changed when Casey O'Callighan remodels it. I can only wish him the best of luck there.

I was at Industry Hills last week, went through all 36 holes (didn't play, and didn't have to) The Babe was in pretty good shape esthetically, whereas the Ike was looking like Ike. The courses are way too over-watered.

More on BB Jr.

Pete hits a home run here in regards to what he is saying. Couldn't have said it better. Some of the stuff isn't all that bad, but it could have been so much better. Suprisingly, when given the chance, he created some pretty wild greensites that work. Ike #1 maybe one of my favorite. Especially when its running fast.

As recently discussed: Sandpiper may have the best of the Bell architecture, but the North Course at Torrey Pines maybe the funnest course he produced. Thank God Tod Leonard led the charge for the REEStoration work to be brought to a abrupt halt on that course.

Los Verdes isn't half bad either!

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,
....public venues that allow average golfers to navigate the course with little difficuty and provide some interest to the better player???

Tommy,

You are quite right, I was trying to pigeon hole the Bily Bell Jr. style and realized once I typed it that Industry Hills did NOT fit into that mold; but hey how often do you get to design two golf courses on top of a mountain of garbage!

Like you said, some of his stuff is quite good; I could play Torrey North, Los Verdes or Rancho Bernardo Inn quite happily. Torrey North green's have some wonderful contours; some greens are quite perplexing. Los Verdes has that hidden break down the hillside; did he plan that or did the whole course just slide a little down the hill over time? We played Meadow Lark this year in SCGA Team Play and couldn't believe the greens there: like a miniature Dornoch, 18 tiny turtle shells to putt on. Did he really come up with those? I often wonder how much influence the on site foreman had in his designs. Can you shed any light on who might have helped in this manner?

[John Kirk]

Billy Bell Jr. designed Palo Alto Municipal Golf Course, next to the San Francisco Bay.  It's not bad at all, benefiting from a regular afternoon breeze that affects play.  The course has been modified through the years, so I'm not sure how much of the original design is there.  It is the best of the Baylands courses, better than Moffett Field, Santa Clara, and Shoreline.

Of course, Billy Bell Sr. designed the beautiful Stanford Golf Course, which has also been modified considerably.  It plays about the same as before modification (except holes 3 and 4 which were changed to allow road expansion), but the new bunkers aren't as attractive as the beautiful original bunkering.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pete,
You should get your lists of courses played and their designers out and change Meadowlark. It's NOT Billy Bell, It's Max Behr! Although it is likely Bell Jr. was behind some of the more ridiculous changes there, and then award winning golf architect Cal Olson.

Meadowlark is the former Long Beach Country Club.

Let us not forget also that Tom Watson and Tom Kite both played Industry Hills ONE TIME, scouting it for a future PGA Tour tournament site. Kite walked off the course after the front nine and Watson shot 84 or something like that!

This may be the very reason why the PGA Tour never visited there! I think!

[DMoriarty]

This golf course may undergo a renovation/remodel/redesign within the next 5 years and I would like to know if the front nine design is worth saving and restoring.  It appears that is not the case.  The golf course is much too crowded with holes and there is more property to use to expand.

Troy, it is an easy mistake to make and very common even among those who definitely should know better.  Happens on gca.com a few times a year at least.  

Along those lines . . . if you want stick with the restoration angle despite the above information, I am sure you could find an architect or two who proclaim to be experts on Bell(s), but really wouldn't know Senior's Bunker from Junior's hole in the ground.  You might even find one on this site who might be willing to stick some impressive date on the project when he is finished . . . . Let's see . . .  you said early seventies . . . lets go with 1972 . . .  build some bunkers and move some dirt around . . .    How does "Billy Bill, circa 1927" sound?  

As you might have guessed,  the Christmas Spirit may have gotten to Lynn and Pete, but isnt haunting me yet.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Some here hold the opinion that Jr. simply did not inheret the better of the gene pools. However, after visiting, playing and working on many Bell courses (Sr, and Jr.) I have concluded that it is more a matter of era and emphasis.

Simply put, Sr. spent time with Gro. Thomas (Bell Sr. being second banana) and Bell died in 1953. His son entered the business when quantity mattered.

I am confident that Sr. — had he lived longer — would have taken many more jobs, including several mundane sites. His legacy is in debt to the association with Thomas and not having had to work in the late 50s and 60s when more was better, regardless of the site or quality.

I look forward to one day seeing Kah-Nee-Ta. I think.

[Mike Erdmann]

Troy, in addition to Kah Nee Ta, William F. Bell did a couple other courses in Oregon including my home club, Illahe Hills CC in Salem.  Forest Hills GC in Cornelius was apparently done by Jr. and Sr. in 1953, and I've always been curious as to how much involvement Sr. had there.  Maybe Tommy knows about Sr's work at Forest Hills?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
Unfortunately, I have never came up with anything on Forest Hills in Cornelius, but there isn't a week that goes by that I don't think about playing there again. One of the most calm and relaxing golf courses you would ever want to play that doesn't have an ocean or sand dunes around it. At least I have always felt that!)

And its tough in a lot of spots too!)

Without doubt, Billy Bell Sr. was there. Too many interesting to good holes on both the back and front.

[Jim Nugent]

Let us not forget also that Tom Watson and Tom Kite both played Industry Hills ONE TIME, scouting it for a future PGA Tour tournament site. Kite walked off the course after the front nine and Watson shot 84 or something like that!

This may be the very reason why the PGA Tour never visited there! I think!

I was told that after Watson finished that round, he called the Ike the worst course he ever played.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim,
This is true. But Forrest loves the course(s) Ike and Babe.

Me, As we posted here earlier this year or late last, I would rather place my head on a Funicular track and push the button then play there. Forrest has offered to push the button for me!

Actually, I live 10 minutes from the place and at one time contemplated even joining there. ($200 a year membership that offers you reduced green fees back in the day when $45.00 to play  there was considered somewhat pricey) I played there regularly about three times a month at night, when it was considered a really good deal @ $25.00 for twilight on Saturday or Sunday. People (many, many Asian's) got privey to this and it went from being really affordable golf where you could actually get 27 holes or more to 6 hour rounds. It was also in really good condition other then the length of the rough which suffered no fools.

The 9th hole on the Babe course there may be the very worse golf hole ever constructed.

[Forrest Richardson]

I do enjoy the courses — love may be overdoing it. I played them several times a year during my frequent trips to LA in the 1980s.

I agree with Tommy about two points:

The Babe has some terrible holes, but I enjoy terrible holes. (The Road Hole is another terrible hole I enjoy.)

Secondly...well, I can't recall just now...I am too preoccupied about the thought of pushing the button.

[Troy Alderson]

Bell Sr. did not have influence at KNT since he had passed on almost 20 years before the design.  The front nine that Bell Jr. designed is much better than the back nine designed by Bunny Mason.  Mr. Mason is known for inexpensive work and gets alot of business in Oregon.  Both nines have small greens (3500 average) and the lay out of the front nine is much better than the back.  Unforntunately, the resort has taken liberties with the lay outs and ruined both architects visions.  But, then again both architects had some screwy ideas about routing and/or proximity of holes to each other.

I would much appreciate anyone visiting and giving their opinion on the golf course.  In order for KNT to compete in the golf industry, a complete redesign maybe in order.

What is everyone's opinion on remoteness of a golf course and it's ability to draw golfers to it?  Does a remote golf course need to be high end or can the right architect create a golf course at appropriate costs and quality to bring in the golfers?

Troy

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Troy,
An golf architect named Bunny?

Next thing you know your going to tell me he's designed a course called Persimmon....

It's almost as bizarre as if Steve Forest of Art Hills & Associates married Forrest's mother. "Hi, I'm Forrest Forest--golf architect. I own a mansion und a yacht..."

[Tom Huckaby]

Billy Bell Jr. designed Palo Alto Municipal Golf Course, next to the San Francisco Bay.  It's not bad at all, benefiting from a regular afternoon breeze that affects play.  The course has been modified through the years, so I'm not sure how much of the original design is there.  It is the best of the Baylands courses, better than Moffett Field, Santa Clara, and Shoreline.

JK - you think so?  Heck all of them get the same afternoon breeze.

I'd rank them:

Shoreline
Santa Clara
Moffett Field
Palo Alto

I'd be interested what Mike Benham or John Krystynak or other locals think as well.  To me Palo Alto is blah and boring and has nothing to it; and I say that having played it at least 50 times.  Oh, note it underwent a pretty significant renovation a few years ago, with all 18 greens being re-done, among other things.  Routing remained the same though.  Conditions were improved, but the course remains a pretty boring slog.

Curious you prefer it to the other three, all of which have holes you need to think on, a condition not required at Palo Alto outside of maybe on the tee shot on #10.  

Interesting also, I'd say the best of the lot on the Peninsula side of the Bay is now Poplar Creek - fun fun fun - which used to be clearly the worst when it was known as San Mateo Muni.

And all this talk of Industry Hills... all I can say is it was a great site for a golf library.  

[Forrest Richardson]

The golf library was great there — it was part of the experience. Many people do not realize that the entire concept; golf course, library, hotel, etc. was integrated to be a golf mecca. The courses continue to get bashed. Those who bash them are thankful "nothing like them will ever be built again..." — That quality alone is reason to like them.