Why is it called a hazard if you aim to get in it?

[Garland Bayley]

I tried to put the following in as my signature in my profile, but the character limit prevented me.

"If I had my way, there would be a troupe of cavalry horses running through every trap and bunker on the course before a tournament started, where only a niblick could get the ball out and then but only a few yards. I have seen a number of traps and bunkers that afforded better lies and easier strokes than the fairway. This, of course, is ridiculous."
C. B. McDonald

With my thanks to Geoff Schackelford and his book "Lines of Charm"

[Pat Howard]

I have to agree with you on this one. As a tournament golfer, I have never directly aimed at a bunker (my prefered name for such areas),  but I have more than once felt relief that my ball had found one. This is especially true for greenside bunkers. Often, when the tournament commitee decides to grow out the rough to penalize the golfers, they forget that the so-called "hazards" will be maintained the same as always, allowing the players an escape route of sorts.

It would be great to play/watch an event where the bunkers were not maintained so perfectly. But my guess is that you would have so many complaints that this idea wouldn't last long!

[Bob_Huntley]

The par 5 ninth ninth hole on the Dunes Course at MPCC is less than 500 from the back tees and is looked upon as a piece of cake to birdie. There is however, one piece of the puzzle that is overlooked. For the player going for it in two, he must clear a sand dune immediately adjacent to the green that tilts from right to left.

This dune is not a hazard and believe me, the footprints, deer hoof marks and gouges from the vicious strokes of very irate golfers make this a wonderful test. What is even worse, is when you dump your short wedge into the morass. This causes much despair.


Bob

[Dan King]

I've never in my life aimed for a bunker (but Tommy N has.) They are hazards for me and for everyone I know.

Why should we change the name of them just because a very small percentage of golfers might aim for them?

Dan King

If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, with increasing gusto as their number mounts up; but it will be a wise precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to meet him on equal terms.
  --Horace Hutchinson  (Hints on Golf)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

Grooming, or better yet preparation, combined with L-Wedges and specialty clubs have conspired to make them less then hazards.

The grooming or preparation is a function of the culture of the club.

Some clubs, attempting to be fair to all of their members, good and poor players alike, sanitize the bunkers.  Some compact the sand so that balls sit up for a relatively easy extractions.

Add to that, the specialty clubs for fairway bunkers and L-Wedges for green side bunkers and you have features whose definitions no longer match their function.

I too favor bunkers that are unkempt, save for once a month.

[paul cowley]

Agreed Patrick....and my recomendation for a new course we are constructing that has bunkers from large to small is that they all be considered waste areas, even the greenside ones that are not attached to or bleeding off into what most would typically consider a waste area....and then we can maintain them, or any part of them, whenever we want.

..in that way a course for tournament set up doesn't have to be delineated as either a maintained bunker or waste area.

I think Whistling Straits solved their problem the same way.

[Joe Hancock]

Does unkempt bunkers automatically make them waste areas, where grounding of the club is allowed?

Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Taking on a definitive hazard is man's greatest privilege in golf. To me it is also the most fulfilling.

[paul cowley]

Tommy....I like that....I vote you God of the Water  .

[Ian Dalzell]

The problem exists in that the USGA and R&A does not recognize a "waste area".  There is no such thing in the rules of golf.

So, do you ground your club in these areas, or not, and if you do not, why not?  Is it a bunker, or is it just an unkempt part of the course where you can ground your club and take the footprints where they lie

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul,
I was suspecting most people here to want to start-up a thread entitled, "why are you so stupid, Tommy Naccarato?

[David Ober]

I regularly aim to get in greenside bunkers on nearly reachable par 5 holes.

The problem I have with not raking bunkers is that the element of chance becomes too great in my opinion. Meaning, I'm lying in the bunker in someone's footprint, and my fellow competitor draws a perfectly clean lie. I don't mind that in a  water hazard situation, but bunkers should be uniformly maintained IMHO.

[John Kirk]

Great topic for me.  I can actually contribute.  How about those Monsters of The Midway, Chicago guy?

I agree with David Ober on both points.  Let's take short par 5s first.  Often you'll have 200-220 yards to carry a bunker to the green in these situations.  That's a 5-7 wood, a shot I can hit and is worth it.  It's when I've got 180-190 yards, especially uphill, where it's a choice between the long iron and the "changeup" fairway wood.  If it's longer than 220 and we're looking at big 3- or 4-wood, then I'll go for it less than 50%, thereby giving myself confidence to play the wedge game.

Speaking of wedge game, I believe sand play is difficult enough as it is, with fine maintenance practices.  I'd say my sand save average over the last 10 years is about 15-20%, compared to about 40-45% for the PGA (right?).  But many of our favorite courses offer us great bunker play, even with fine conditions.  Great bunkers are unpredictable and nice and fair.  I though the bunkers at Sand Hills were amazing in their windswept perfection, and the penalty you paid for hitting into them.  The big bunkers at Pasatiempo are different to be sure, but well maintained, challenging and exciting.  Great bunkers are very important, and a lack of uniformity is essential.

OK...so Tommy and I are playing Stone Eagle on Friday afternoon, and we come to #8 and I'm feeling like doodoo, doubling the difficult drop shot #7 to go 6 over.  Tommy steps up first after adequate counseling and slices his ball into the Canyon Bunker.  I step up with no concept of a golf swing and slice it even further right.  Tommy acknowledged my fine effort.

Tom is centered in the 22 foot depression and deftly wedges out, saving bogey.  I am right of the sand in the wash.  I pick an aggressive line and skull a bullet just over the skyline, out towards par.  We zip out there and nothing is to be found.  That was weird, huh Tommy?  Was it the guys on the tractors?  Weird.

There's this year's Tommy knocks it into a bunker story.  Tommy and I had major fun.

[John Kirk]

Let me clarify...I hardly ever aim for bunkers...I try to carry them when the risk is worth it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
It was a blast!

From day one of going out there to see the course being built, (the day the Dodgers won the division by beating the much hated by everyone SF Gnats on a Steve Finley walk-off GRAND SALAMI)(that was for both you and Benham) I told Tom Doak to make that bunker extra deep! Since my initial play into the bunker, I've hit some pretty good drives just by it or just even with it.

As far as I'm concerned, Tom didn't make the bunker deep enough, but given its the Desert, (as in Palm Desert) it's perfect for those yutes!

[ForkaB]

Sometimes it takes skill (or serendipity) to not get in a bunker.  I tried to Naccartorize the Strath bunker at the Old Course earlier this year, but hit it fat and ended up a yard short with a tricky pitch off the turf to a front pin.  It turned out to be a much more fun and difficult shot than a simple blast out from the sand.  If and when I ever play Pine Valley I think I'll try the same lay up strategy with the DA.

[Garland Bayley]

I regularly aim to get in greenside bunkers on nearly reachable par 5 holes.

The problem I have with not raking bunkers is that the element of chance becomes too great in my opinion. Meaning, I'm lying in the bunker in someone's footprint, and my fellow competitor draws a perfectly clean lie. I don't mind that in a  water hazard situation, but bunkers should be uniformly maintained IMHO.

Your problem is the "element of chance"?!?! It's a hazard!
When Tiger putted into the creek at ANGC there was an "element of chance" that his ball may have actually been submerged in the water. Should we put a dam on Rae's Creek so that the water flow can be shut off during the day to take away that element of chance? After all, it's a lowly little hazard, and we wouldn't want any element of chance!

Pity the poor GCA that put the bunker on that par 5 that you are aiming to get in. The poor guy was dellusional. He thought we was creating a hazard for you to avoid. Let's forget creating bunkers with sand. Instead let's just put up concrete walls of varying heights to protect our greens. No maintenance cost to rake every morning. If you don't stay properly away, it will cost you a stroke. The ideal hazard! Now let's see you aim to get up next to that!

[JLahrman]

I agree with Garland...besides, there is also an element of chance in the rough.  Not to mention the fairway (divots).  And greens (spike marks).

WRT bunkers, being in the sand is a hazard compared to a 25 foot putt for eagle.  It's just that it may be comparatively less penal than a lie in the rough, although we don't call the rough a hazard.  Even if you make it a waste area and don't rake it, it may very well be possible that rolling the dice with a waste area lie is preferable to rolling the dice with a deep rough lie, or having a ball kick off a mound to be 40 yards away from the green.

[JohnV]

The problem exists in that the USGA and R&A does not recognize a "waste area".  There is no such thing in the rules of golf.

So, do you ground your club in these areas, or not, and if you do not, why not?  Is it a bunker, or is it just an unkempt part of the course where you can ground your club and take the footprints where they lie

"Waste Areas" are just part of the course known as "through the green" under the Rules of Golf.  You may ground your club.  You may even knock over a pile of sand on your backswing as long as you complete the stroke (ie don't do it on your waggle or a practice swing.)

The question of whether an area is a bunker or not is one that is sometimes difficult to determine.  For example when the US Mid-Amateur was at Sea Island last year, the sandy areas that were raked were defined as bunkers and the non-maintained areas were through the green.  The players were instructed to ask for assistance if they were unsure or just to make sure and play it as a bunker.  Since we had an official with every group, there was no great delay in asking.  I didn't have any player even ask me in the 5 rounds I walked with groups.

The definition of a bunker says, "a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like."  Because of this, sand dunes are not usually considered to be bunkers.

The USGA has made bunkers more difficult in their championships the last few years after David Fay got tired of hearing players say "Git in the bunker".

At the US Senior Open this year, Allan Doyle ragged at me because his low 3-wood second shot had plugged in a bunker to the right of the 10th green at NCR.  He felt that it wasn't right that a ball hit that low should plug.  I just said, "The USGA wants them to be hazards."  He walked in and blasted the ball to about a foot and made birdie.

[Garland Bayley]

Dan and Patrick,

The question in the subject was a rhetorical question.
To understand more of my take on the issue, see my response to David Ober.
I do note you agree with me on this issue Patrick. Probably the last time that will ever happen.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The question of whether an area is a bunker or not is one that is sometimes difficult to determine.  For example when the US Mid-Amateur was at Sea Island last year, the sandy areas that were raked were defined as bunkers and the non-maintained areas were through the green.  The players were instructed to ask for assistance if they were unsure or just to make sure and play it as a bunker.  Since we had an official with every group, there was no great delay in asking.  I didn't have any player even ask me in the 5 rounds I walked with groups.
...

Seems simple enough to me. Remove all the rakes from the course and then everything will be played through the green.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sometimes it takes skill (or serendipity) to not get in a bunker.  I tried to Naccartorize the Strath bunker at the Old Course earlier this year, but hit it fat and ended up a yard short with a tricky pitch off the turf to a front pin.  It turned out to be a much more fun and difficult shot than a simple blast out from the sand.  If and when I ever play Pine Valley I think I'll try the same lay up strategy with the DA.

Rich, I say go for the bunker itself. Once your in, you've completed one half of your quest--you got in. Now its time to really buckle down and get the hell out of there. You can't do that with a short miss. You only get a half-credit and to me, that plain sucks. Go For It! Put it in the eepest darkest portion of the bunker!

[Jim Nugent]

If you don't rake traps, doesn't the course get harder as the day goes?  i.e. don't the last groups play a tougher course than the earlier ones?  

[JohnV]

Seems simple enough to me. Remove all the rakes from the course and then everything will be played through the green.

About a year ago in response to a post by Tom Paul, I looked at the changes in the rules that would come from eliminating bunkers.  In general, it would probably make things a little easier as players could ground clubs and knock over sand on their backswings.  It would simplify the rules quite a bit as various sections devoted to bunkers could be eliminated.

[David Ober]

I regularly aim to get in greenside bunkers on nearly reachable par 5 holes.

The problem I have with not raking bunkers is that the element of chance becomes too great in my opinion. Meaning, I'm lying in the bunker in someone's footprint, and my fellow competitor draws a perfectly clean lie. I don't mind that in a  water hazard situation, but bunkers should be uniformly maintained IMHO.

Your problem is the "element of chance"?!?! It's a hazard!
When Tiger putted into the creek at ANGC there was an "element of chance" that his ball may have actually been submerged in the water. Should we put a dam on Rae's Creek so that the water flow can be shut off during the day to take away that element of chance? After all, it's a lowly little hazard, and we wouldn't want any element of chance!

Pity the poor GCA that put the bunker on that par 5 that you are aiming to get in. The poor guy was dellusional. He thought we was creating a hazard for you to avoid. Let's forget creating bunkers with sand. Instead let's just put up concrete walls of varying heights to protect our greens. No maintenance cost to rake every morning. If you don't stay properly away, it will cost you a stroke. The ideal hazard! Now let's see you aim to get up next to that!

Uh ... I think you conveniently missed the part where I mentioned that water hazards are different than bunkers.

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