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Michael Moore

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Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« on: December 13, 2005, 04:03:18 PM »
GOLF Magazine has announced the winners of her Armchair Architect contest.

Winner - 575 yard risk-reward par 5

Second - 550 yard risk-reward par 5

Third - 560 yard risk-reward par 5

Fourth - can't read it risk-reward par 5

This contest was judged by our own Tom Doak. The winner gets to go on site and bleat in Tom's ear about the appearance of his bunkers. I have already sharpened my pencil and purchased my graph paper in order to devise next year's winner, a 540 yard risk-reward par 5.

But seriously Tom, were you beseiged by this type of hole, or is it the pinnacle of design?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

SPDB

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2005, 04:19:06 PM »
Didn't the contest ask for a par 5?

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2005, 05:19:31 PM »
Damn, mine is a 585 yard par 5.

Don't know that I'd call it risk/reward, either.

Contest was for a par 5, no other real restrictions that I can remember off the top of my head.

Guess Barnbougle's gonna have to wait just a little longer for me to stop by.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2005, 11:01:28 AM »
Got my Golf magazine last night, so I had a chance to check out the winner. It was a pretty interesting design, though I am, of course, partial to mine. :) Actually, I liked Daryn's better as well.

Here is the winning entry, along with comments from that bastard :) Tom Doak:


Tom Doak on the winning entry:
"This works equally well as a two-shot hole for those strong enough to reach the green and as a three-shot hole for everybody else. Long hitters can chase the ball well down the fairway, but it’s a narrow gap to hit through unless they can carry the far-right fairway bunker. The hole really shines with the second-shot options offered those who don’t go for the green. This Y-shaped landing area gives everyone a choice, but it narrows as you approach the green. Carl also offers a wide-open area left for those who just want to hit away from trouble, and the option of laying back to the fork of the fairway, leaving a 150-yard approach from a good angle.”


Here is Daryn's entry:


Here is mine:


For more on Daryn's entry, here is his thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19865

If anyone cares to read the discussion of my entry, here is the thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19858;start=0
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 11:11:41 AM »
Here are the runner up entries:

"Backbone" by Adam Sherer

The hole, par 5 measuring 550 yards, is situated in a hollow, with ridges on either side. In five places these ridges extend, bisecting the fairway in the form of fescue covered spines or "backbones".

The gamble is dependent on the wind and a player must choose how many "backbones" to carry. The green is partially obscured on the left, depending on the approach angle, with two surprise bunkers awaiting errant shots



"Unnamed" by Mark R. Miller

A 560 yard par 5 with a lake crossing the middle of the fairway. Generous landing area from the tee although a power fade is advantageous to have a chance of reaching the green in two.

A large fairway bunker and trees guard the right side. Numerous options on second shot. Fairway narrows substantially near the green. Two mounds (with long rough) guard the left front of the green and a sand trap guards the rear. These should make for interesting shots back toward the water. Green is two tiered.



"Risk and Reward" by Steven Bauer

This finishing 18th Hole par five is best described - "How much do you risk your tee shot and how much of a reward from the tee shot provide you for the next shot?" In your round, if you need to get another birdie try aiming for the left and go for two. If you are in the lead stay more conservative and look to aim more to the right and play for position and come into the hole from the right.

From the raised back tees, you can see the entire golf hole. The afternoon sun is toward your back but a steady breeze and a gust of wind from the south will allow you to error slightly to the south and bring the ball back into the fairway.

Several bunkers have been incorporated to keep you thinking and honest as you decide which way to go. The tees are basically setup to aim left, a more conservative way of playing, yet the bunkers keep you in check.

Perhaps the more risky shot to the right will be rewarded by the ball drifting into the center to left center of the fairway and allow you the option of going for it in two or stay to the right. In either case, as you move down the fairway and closer to the green, it gets narrow; bunkers are raised to hide portions of the green.

Your depth perception is being tested. If you come in too strong with the approach shot the ball will bounce down a steep hill and rest at the bottom leaving you with a blind shot back to the green.

Do you risk it at the tee shot and be rewarded by a slim to none chance to go for the green in two or find a route that is suitable for you as you play the "Toughest Par 5 - Risk and Reward."



Of the winning entries, I think I like "Backbones" the best.

I wonder if mine or Daryn's even made it to Tom - hopefuly Tom will see this and chime in. (Don't worry, I can handle the truth. :))
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2005, 11:14:42 AM »
Hey, I just noticed the winning entry says "Illustration by Dan Placek"! Talk about a conflict of interest.... ;D

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/features/features/article/0,17742,1138434,00.html



















(I'm assuming someone had Dan redraw it for the magazine)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 11:15:12 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2005, 11:31:16 AM »
Well, chalk another one up to a learning experience.

Maybe Tommy N will get a chance to post mine with his revisions and our discussion as well.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2005, 12:08:21 PM »
Interesting, the winner reminds me somewhat of the tenth at Spanish Bay.

Robert Thompson

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2005, 12:46:59 PM »
Clearly there was a lot of interest in using bunkers within the fairway (like Doak's first five at Pacific) as opposed to using bunkers to promote carry angles -- or at least that's how it looks to me on first glance.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Michael Moore

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2005, 12:54:48 PM »
SPDB is correct, this contest was for par fives only. Please ignore everything that I write and enjoy a discussion of these fine holes.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

mike_malone

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2005, 01:05:41 PM »
 George,


   Possibly the "subtlety" of your design would be picked  up on return viewings ;D
AKA Mayday

John Kirk

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2005, 02:10:38 PM »
I like "Backbone", though it seems dependent on finding the exact terrain to make it happen.

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
George,


   Possibly the "subtlety" of your design would be picked  up on return viewings ;D

Subtle humor to others, perhaps, but I almost spit my Coke out onto my computer screen laughing. Thanks, Mike. :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 02:40:21 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2005, 03:11:14 PM »
Would the terrain for the winning entry be found anywhere besides kidnappers cove? :)
The way it is rendered, it looks like the fairway occupies the high ground, and everything else falls away from it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2005, 03:21:37 PM »
Did artistic ability have any bearing on the results? Some of those illustrations are really good, regardless of whether the architecture has any merit.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2005, 03:25:58 PM »
George:

No, neither your entry nor Daryn's made the "first cut" down to the 25 which I had to choose from.  One of GOLF's editors did the cutting.

I liked all the three runners-up ... each of them was creative and different, but each of them had a flaw in my view.

Adam Sherer's entry was not helped by the fact that his name was right on the front of his design ... he applied for our internship last year, so I knew who he was.  It reminded me a bit of the 14th at Dornoch, but the various strategies and the reason for all the ridges in the particular spots he put them in, were not made clear.

I liked Mark Miller's design a lot, but he didn't give a route for the player who had trouble making a carry of 75 yards or more over water.  He could have done so quite easily by making the pond into more of a stream north of Points C and D.

Steven Bauer's entry was one of the best drawings of the bunch, and had several alternate routes shown, but the route which he didn't illustrate was the one which killed it for me:  the really long hitters could carry their tee shots over most of the trouble to a wide fairway where the number 18 is circled on his plan, leaving them with a straightforward second shot.

The second-shot strategy of the winning design was by far the most interesting one I saw, and that's why it won.


cary lichtenstein

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2005, 03:44:51 PM »
The winner reminds me of a hole at Jim Engh's True North
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Daryn_Soldan

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2005, 04:23:05 PM »
WHAT???  :o  Not even the final cut??? :'(  I'm crushed, hurt, downtrodden.  Depression setting in... meaning of life coming into question.  Guess there is no reason to continue that landscape architecture masters program I'm in and have been awake for three straight days doing final projects for.  In fact, the local pub sounds like a much better option than that final exam this evening.  Off the deep end I gooooo!!!

 ;D   ;D   ;D

Ok, in all seriousness I'm just fine (except for this darn test) and I really like the winning entry.  One thing I noticed that goes against convention but seems to work well is that the forward tees actually face a greater dogleg angle than the back tee does.  This makes the hole work from all teeing areas much better than if they would have been alligned running north-east from the back tee as one might expect.

Thanks George for posting my design again.  As always, any comments or critiques are useful and appreciated.  Well, back to the books.

-Daryn

Tyler Kearns

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2005, 04:27:04 PM »
I like "Backbone", though it seems dependent on finding the exact terrain to make it happen.

Or then can be sculpted on a relatively flat site quite easily, but not ideally.

TK

Scott Witter

Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2005, 04:33:01 PM »
Cary,

I think you might be referring to the 12th hole at True North.  I guess on the surface I can see some similarities, certainly in the tee shot, though the second shot strategy and choices at True North are definitely not as good as they are with the winner's entry.  Jim Engh doesn't have bunkers influencing play out in the fairway on the second shot, but I do like the fact that he did keep the green higher than the approach and the fronting slope of rough is effective as well.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2005, 04:43:39 PM »
Tom,
Were you disappointed by the amount of space the article got?  6 pages for modifying someones grip for the 5th time, vs. 1/3 column for an opportunity to work on one of your projects...

Did they not want to describe the prize in detail?
They could have printed an agenda on the day of the life of an architect?
All the shots or anit-venom he have to procure to travel?  :)
What would he be expected to do...
Anything..H

as Carl chosen his prize or have you given him his options?
How old is he?

Good job on your part.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

George Pazin

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2005, 05:47:47 PM »
Daryn, I'm driving over to Golf's headquarters later this week to "have a talk" with them - I'll pick you up on the way.

Mike's definitely right about the lack of space in the magazine. I almost missed it when leafing through.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2005, 09:56:30 PM »
Have we run out of original concepts?  At first glance of the winning entry, I thought this hole bears a strong resemblance to Bethpage Black #4, albeit a reversed version.  Absent of contour lines, it's difficult to determine the specifics of the shot--if the tee ball is uphill or downhill, second shot, etc.  These comments are based on the hole as drawn in the color photograph.  

Let's examine in detail.  

The tee ball is played to a relatively wide area, from the rear tee.  From the more forward tees, the ideal landing area for the tee ball appears to be in the narrow neck of fairway.  
It is difficult to determine from the drawing what the lightly shaded area on the left represents, but it is of little consequence.  

There are some similarities to the tee ball at BB #4 here.  Firstly, as I have previously stated, the ideal tee ball is hit into a wide area.  Similarly, it appears from the drawing that a tee ball that does not find the fairway is precluded from having a shot at the green.  Although this is a concept not exclusive to BB #4, that a tee ball in the rough cannot approach the green, it is similar.  

The second major similarity I see is that the second shot is played over a large expanse of rough or broken ground-again, similar to #4 BB, where the second shot, if the golfer be as bold (and some say, foolish) as to try to approach the green in two, is played over several bunkers, and penal rough.  

Third, it appears from the drawing, although is is not drawn, that a golfer wishing to 'play safe' and perhaps prevent himself from disaster on this hole may play safely out to the left of the green, where there appears to be ample room for a "lay-up" shot.  From here, it appears that the golfer has a simple pitch, unobstructed by rough or obstacles, with the exception of one "bad news" bunker, to a green with several distinct areas in which to place the hole location.

Fourth, the "lay-up shot" which has not been hit far enough down the fairway will come to rest, absent firm and fast conditions, in a place where the golfer must approach the green from an odd angle, over the corner of a bunker and rough.  

Fifth, it appears that behind the green, as evidenced by the photo, is "bad news", again, similar to BB #4, where a shot that runs over the green will run considerably away from the green itself.  

In contrast to BB #4, there are a few differences.  It appears that "chipping area", or fairway cut, exists between the end of the right bunker and the green, ostensibly to allow golfers to hit into this area and run the ball up on the green.  It's difficult to determine if there is sufficent fairway here, to allow a well struck shot, in firm and fast conditions, to slow enough so as not to run into the "bad news" bunker at the rear of the green.  

The fairway is uninterrupted from tee to green, although there are necks present between wider sections.  BB #4 has two separate fairways, one nearer the tee, for the first shot, one for the second shot, above/past the "glacier" bunker.  

It is also not evident from the drawing whether the hole features death just right of the green, as BB #4 does, where a shot missing on the side opposite the "lay-up" area will roll a considerable distance away from the green.  

The several bunkers at what appears to be 90 and 70 yards out in the fairway appear to have the potential to harass the weaker golfer rather than the stronger golfer, who can demonstrate distance control with his clubs.  

Finally, it appears that the greensite is raised somewhat from the surrounding fairway, similar to BB #4 yet different in that the note that reads "slightly blind" may indicate the green is raised more than the fourth at BB #4.  

In conclusion, this looks like a fun hole to play, with risk reward for all players, but a safe route for the beginner or short hitter.  It appears to be a fair hole for all to play, which I am favor of, as a player who is subject to both delightfully good and frustratingly bad days.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 09:59:39 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mark_Fine

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Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2005, 10:30:00 PM »
The winning entry to me looks like a Tom Doak kind of golf hole - lots of width (from the back tee), lots of options, center fairway hazards (I think maybe one too many in this case), well contoured and angled green,..  I wonder if that had anything to do with it  ;)  Let's put it another way, I doubt that Rees Jones or Tom Fazio would have picked it!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 15, 2005, 06:15:43 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Lack of diversity in Armchair Architect contest winners
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2005, 05:09:03 PM »
It seems to me the driving area is way too stern if the whole  concept is based upon the excitement and strategy of the second shot.  I would think you might make the tee shot one where a player has some freedom to let loose so that the opportunities for excitement on the second shot are more frequent.  The tee shot area for the average player looks particularly narrow and difficult.  I would think with some experience with the hole the smart player will learn to lay up with the tee shot.  We have all fallen into this trap where it seems the entire hole is just way over designed.

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