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T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #575 on: December 31, 2005, 10:42:33 PM »
I suspect these are the laws Behr is referring to:

"The perfection of landscape gardening consists in the four following requisites: First, it must display the natural beauties and hide the natural defects of every situation. Secondly, it should give the appearance of extent and freedom, by carefully disguising or hiding the boundary. Thirdly, it must studiously conceal every interference of art, however expensive, by which the scenery is improved, making the whole appear the production of nature only; and fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort, if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming proper parts of the general scenery, must be removed or concealed."

In 1909 the British A&C figure Charles Ashbee visited the USA...he accompanied Charles Greene (Greene & Greene) while touring Pasadena and the Arroyo, this an excerpt from Ashbee's memoirs:

"We looked out on the mountains and discussed single tax in the intervals of tea and fingering the sufraces of Greene's scholarly panelling. As the afternoon wore on, a glorious sunset lit the snow of the mountains to rose red."

This has been today's A&C moment.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #576 on: December 31, 2005, 11:35:06 PM »
I've been trying to tell you all this man Macwood is off the matk in his fixation of the A/C movement. Read  his post above. Is there any question of it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 11:36:50 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #577 on: January 01, 2006, 12:04:35 AM »
Another common thread among the A&C craftsmen was the spirit of collaboration and comradery. Ashbee seeking out the Greenes, Wright and others. Maybeck, Charles Eliot Norton, Stickley, and others seeking out Ruskin and Morris. There was a similar transcontinental exchange between Macdonald, Hutchinson, Ross, Wilson, Fowler, Thomas, MacKenzie, Behr, Colt, Crump, Alison, Flynn, Fujita, Russell and Low.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 12:17:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #578 on: January 01, 2006, 12:38:48 AM »
TomM

Earlier you mentioned that Reginald Blomfield claimed he designed Rye.  Can you expand on this a bit?  Did he make the claim in one of his books?  

I find this claim fascinating, given that Blomfield is usually seen as the AC proponent of a return to "formal" gardens by extending the architecture of the accompanying home.    

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #579 on: January 01, 2006, 11:10:02 AM »
Evidently Blomfield was known as quite a sportsman (in addition to being an architect and garden designer) and built himself a small cliffside home at Rye. He claimed (in his autobiography Memoirs of an Architect) that he designed the golf course at Rye. Hawtree wrote in Colt & Co.: "He [Blomfield] reckoned he was the first to play over the Camber land and set out some stakes with pieces of paper on them to represent holes: 'Our first Secretary was HS Colt, a fine golfer, who afterwards transferrred his energies to the design of golf courses...'"

As far as I know he is the only one who believes he was responsible, although I must admit there are numerous stories about the formation and building of Rye. I do know Sir Reginald was heavily involved in getting a small railway/tram built from the Rye station to the golf club in 1895...so who knows, there may be some truth to his claim.

Henry James was a friend and neighbor of Blomfield's at Rye, he lived in Lamb House, a little Georgian box with a walled garden. Another member of Rye, was Nathaniel Lloyd, who bought Great Dixter and had Lutyens redsign it. Lloyd was also garden designer and an author of books on gardening and brickwork.

This has been today's...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 11:22:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #580 on: January 01, 2006, 02:26:06 PM »
Tom Mac,
Max lived in two spots that I know of: Pacific Palisades, ironically not far from where Geoff lives and in Pasadena, not far from Pasadena Golf Club.

He was arrested for getting into a fist fight at the home of Mary Miles Minter, which was also right near Pasadena. Ironically, MMM would find herself in the media eye for a more scandelous event when she was suspected in the still to this day unsolved murder of famed director, William Desmond Taylor in his Hancock Park mansion. King Vidor has ascertained that it was actually her MMM's mother that did the killing when she found out that Taylor was not only having an affair with her, but her daughter!

The bastard!

Now maybe we can get another 24 pages dissecting this incident.....
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 02:27:00 PM by Thomas Naccarato »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #581 on: January 01, 2006, 11:22:59 PM »
The two Toms,

Would you consider David Adler as the epitome of the A&C movement in twentieth century American architecture?

Bob

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #582 on: January 02, 2006, 12:40:18 AM »
Bob
I don't think I would characterise Adler in that way, although he did delve in designs that would be characterised as A&C. I see him more as the Lutyens of America, who experimented in many diverse styles and did them all well.

The only Adler I've seen in person is the clubhouse at Shoreacres (a unique design to say the least)...another example of tallented artists (Adler & Raynor) converging on a single project. From what I understand he also designed a great home for Albert Lasker, who commisioned Flynn to design his private golf course--one of Toomey & Flynn's greatest designs.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 12:57:25 AM by Tom MacWood »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #583 on: January 02, 2006, 08:16:53 AM »
For shear mass influence on american architecture I would have to go with Gustav Stickley and his publications and manufactured items....even Sears at one point was offering Craftsman styled homes in their catalog.
....but on a pure creation level, I would go with the Greene brothers and their work in California.

and to my knowledge, none of the above had a passing interest in golf as it related to their creative endeavors or published philosophies.....not that that means anything really.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 09:11:48 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

wsmorrison

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #584 on: January 02, 2006, 08:48:27 AM »
David Adler did design the manor home for Lasker at his Lake Forest estate, Mill Road Farm.  

Tom MacWood, let us not forget that all designs were by Flynn.  Construction of Mill Road Farm's golf course, like most other Flynn design projects, was handled by the Toomey and Flynn contracting engineers firm closely associated to Flynn's design firm.  

Lasker's 55-room house was in the 17th-century French provincial style.  Much of the cost of the construction was paid for by Lasker's sale of his RCA stock which rose from 94 1/2 in March 1928 to 505 on September 1929.  I'm sure it was a great sale as the stock had to have plummeted a month later.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #585 on: January 02, 2006, 09:22:48 AM »
"...and to my knowledge, none of the above had a passing interest in golf as it related to their creative endeavors or published philosophies.....not that that means anything really."

Paul:

I doubt it means much of anything either other than the fact that Tom MacWood has made far too much of an issue over the "Arts and Crafts" movement having a signifcant influence on golf course architecture of the "Golden Age".

"I had been designing AC structures before I became involved in GC design.....maybe there is a link."

Maybe there is a link and maybe YOU are the link. That's would be nicely ironic as Tom MacWood has been accusing you as well of not knowing much about the "Arts and Crafts" Movement, despite the fact of your career. It seems by this point he simply accuses anyone who doesn't subscribe to or who doesn't condone his unspupportable theory of not knowing much about the "Arts and Crafts" movement.  ;)

There does seem to be some influence on Golden Age golf architecture, at least in some form of landscape design principles, from the likes of Repton, Brown etc, but the fact is those landmark early English landscape designers preceded the "Arts and Crafts" movement by many decades. Tom MacWood is incapable of not only understanding that but also of acknowledging it even if it's been pointed out to him and doucmented constantly.

One of the contributors to this site over a year ago mentioned his "Arts and Crafts Golf" essay is all fire and smoke, and I believe that's true. It's simply a litany of names and events that look like impressive research until one realizes they don't exactly connect in any meaningful way that might provide "influences", certainly significant influences. Events that go on concurrently in various eras, be they economic, social or artistic do not necessarily directly or significantly influence one another but obviously that's a fact of history Tom MacWood has not yet come to understand or accept. ;)

Yesterday he mentioned that some of the Golden Age golf architects collaborated with each other philosophically as did some of the A/C crowd in other art forms. It appears he mentions this to establish once again and in another way that this means the A/C movement was a significant influence on the Golden Age of golf architecture. It doesn't mean anything of the kind. Should we also assume that Rogers and Hammerstein were significantly infuenced by the A/C movement because they collaborated with one another as A/C movement artisans once did? Perhaps we should assume that Rogers and Hammerstein were significantly influenced by the golf course architects of the Golden Age because they collaborated as they in turn were siginficantly influenced by the A/C movement artisans because they collaborated. Perhaps we should assume that anyone anywhere who collaborates must be significantly influenced by the A/C movement for that reason, and on and on ad infinitum!  ;)

A few days ago he mentioned that Willie Park jr befriended the likes of Astor and Vanderbilt as if to imply that meant some connection or influence of Park jr and the A/C movement. I asked Tom MacWood a couple of times now what Vanderbilt and particularly Astor had to do with the A/C movement and it seems he's unwilling to answer me. Is there any wonder?

As the contributor who said a year ago that his essay and its thesis of significant A/C movement influence on the Golden Agor of golf architecture is all fire and smoke so are those kinds of points about Vanderbilt and Astor. He just throws a litany of names at us, with seemingly no regard to who they are, as if we'll think there seems so many of them that must imply some connection to the A/C movement and its influence.

Some of them really don't have any connection but when you question him about it he's incapable of supplying a reliable answer. The meaning why is obvious---eg there isn't a reliable answer or connection to the A/C Movmement !   ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 09:33:35 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #586 on: January 02, 2006, 09:45:07 AM »
For shear mass influence on american architecture I would have to go with Gustav Stickley and his publications and manufactured items....even Sears at one point was offering Craftsman styled homes in their catalog.
....but on a pure creation level, I would go with the Greene brothers and their work in California.

and to my knowledge, none of the above had a passing interest in golf as it related to their creative endeavors or published philosophies.....not that that means anything really.

On the surface that may appear to be true, but IMO there was a general undercurrent of aesthetics that had an effect on many creative disciplines. I don't think it is any coincidence that the areas where architecture and other Arts and Crafts flourished were the same pockets where golf architecture reached a very high level: NoCal, SoCal, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, NoNJ, LI.

You could throw a blanket over Stickley's Craftsman Farm, Max Behr's A&C inspired NJ home (with a stream running under it) and Somerset Hills--a beautiful trifecta.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #587 on: January 02, 2006, 10:06:09 AM »
TomP...in my particular situation a direct connection between the AC's, LArch and GCA would not be offensive ....I work and design in the three areas by preference and I have a true appreciation for all of them, but......

I just cannot accept from all that I've read and observed, that one was built on the shoulders of the other.... anymore than ceramics was built on the shoulders of the foundry arts which was built on the shoulders of glass making....but they did evolve contemporaneously.

Carry on brother....  ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 10:37:24 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #588 on: January 02, 2006, 10:24:58 AM »
TE
The reason I brought out the names of Astor, Vanderbilt, Balfour, Talmedge, Webb, Havermeyer, Riddell, etc. was becasue you appear to think Willie Park II was incapable of absoring the same influences as the well educated Englishmen like Hutchinson, Fowler, Colt, Low, Abercromby. That Park was an uneducated inarticulate uncultured Scot. He was very intelligent and felt very comfortable among those in high society be it New York or London.

Park stayed in Astor's home Rhynecliffe...A&C all the way. By the way the Astors, Morgans, Drexels etc spent a great deal of time in London...seeing that it was the financial capital of the world...and during this period, a place of great artistic progress (which was a somewhat unusual phenomenon for the Brits in Western history). Wm Waldorf Astor told the British press: "America is no place for gentlemen."

By the way one of those names up there is Riddell, co-founder of Country Life. George Riddell was a member and great promoter of Huntercombe and as you know Country Life was instramental promoting A&C aesthetics in general and promoting a number of the architects associated with the movement.

In Lutyen's biography it said Edward Hudson, the other co-founder of CL, had lined up a commission at Huntercombe. No details on what he was to build....Lutyen's built the Dormy House at Walton Heath, who knows. Park originally wanted to build a 100 room hotel at Huntercombe, but finances began to go south. And there was also talk of creating a resedential area.

Prior to the Country Life competition for the two shot hole, the magazine held an architectural competition for the perfect cottage. It was won by O.P. Milne. Milne (a potege of both Lutyens and Blomfield) designed the clubhouse at Huntercombe and the one and only home built in the residential area. (He also designed nearby Nuffield Place where multi-millionaire William Morris lived). Another example of the interesting cross currents of the period.

This has been today's...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 10:46:53 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #589 on: January 02, 2006, 10:33:44 AM »
Wayne
No doubt money was an important igredient, but not the only one. There was money in others areas that did not have the same explosion of artistic creativity. Education, climate, cultural diversity, international connections are other posssible considerations.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #590 on: January 02, 2006, 10:36:46 AM »
TomP...in my particular situation a direct connection between the AC's, LArch and GCA would not be offensive ....I work and design in the three areas by preference and I have a true appreciation for all of them, but......

I just cannot accept from all that I've read and observed, that one was built on the shoulders of the other.... anymore than ceramics was built on the shoulders of the foundry arts which was built on the shoulders of glass making.

Carry on brother....  ;)

And that is why you have difficulty comprehending what took place in Britain around the turn of the century. Ruskin and Morris's influence opon a wide variety of artistic disciplines is well documented.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #591 on: January 02, 2006, 10:48:55 AM »
TomM...the Laws of Contemporaneous Existence don't allow for, and actually preclude, your notion of relative coincidal influence.

...have you counted your cogs of late... ;).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 10:49:33 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #592 on: January 02, 2006, 10:55:10 AM »
Paul
For someone who claims to be in tune with the A&C movement, your knowledge of its history and sources is a little disapointing.  

...y'otta try some book learn'n...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 10:59:08 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #593 on: January 02, 2006, 11:01:13 AM »
"TomP...in my particular situation a direct connection between the AC, LA and GCA would not be offensive ....I work and design in the three areas by preference and I have a true appreciation for all of them, but......"

PaulC:

In my opinion, a direct connection between GCA and LA or even AC is not offensive either. That's never been my point in this discussion or debate or whatever one wants to call it. My only point has been that there has never been a significant influence on golf course architecture (Golden Age or otherwise) by the "Arts and Crafts" Movement per se.

Of course it's true that some landscape designers such as Gertrude Stein may've been influenced by the A/C movement in various ways in her art form of landscape design but that does not mean that GCA was influenced by the A/C movement. That becomes particularly obvious when one considers the fact that a number of the significant architects of the Golden Age directly mentioned the influence on their golf architectural philosophies and principles to landscape designers that PRECEDED the A/C Movement by over a century.

Of course those landscape designers the GCAers attributed as influencing them were the first to shift the look and style of their art form from the rigid formality that preceded them to a style and look of far more naturalism in their art form of landscape design.

This was the connection of landscape design's influence on GCA in a naturalistic sense. The GCA that preceded the Golden Age of golf architecture (so-called "Dark Ages" in GB and the so-called "Geometric" age in the USA) was formality and rigidity and rudimentariness at its peak in GCA. The reasons for that early style and look is a wholly separate question---and one that is very worthy of discussion!  ;)

You said;

"I just cannot accept from all that I've read and observed, that one was built on the shoulders of the other.... anymore than ceramics was built on the shoulders of the foundry arts which was built on the shoulders of glass making."

I certainly can't accept that naturalistic GCA was built on the shoulders of the A/C movement for the obvious reasons given just above but I can appreciate the influence landscape designers such as Repton, Brown, Puckler etc had on Golden Age GCA in the way of applied "naturalistic" principles! One only needs to read what such as Macdonald and Behr wrote about that to understand the validity of it.

The Golden Age of golf architecture was the first time man-made architecture applied the look and feel of Nature itself to its incipient art form. This was not some revival of an earlier art form such as Gothic architecture that the Pre-Raphaelites, the A/C Movment, the Aesthetic Movement et al were attempting to BRING BACK to their art forms.

Golf course architecture could not have had such a revival because it did not exist as an art form or even a concept previously! The linksland courses that preceded golf course architecture by sometimes centuries were not an art form, they were simply Nature itself.

All these realities are proof enough that the A/C Movement could not possibly have been the significant influence on GCA or Golden Age GCA that Tom MacWood is attempting to prove it was.

Any researcher has only to understand and apply these historic facts, as well as their obvious time-lines to understand the truth and historical accuracy of this.

"Carry on brother...."

I will, and you do too because there isn't any good reason at all that anyone interested in this subject should buy into or even be impressed in the slightest by this kind of blatant historical revisionism.

What Tom MacWood has done here or tried to do is to try to EXPAND the A/C movement into something it was NOT. He's trying to enlarge and expand its impact and existence into such a universal and broad philosophy---actually he even went farther than "a philosophy" and labelled it "an approach"---that he can then attempt to fit almost anything (such as GCA) into it and to claim that consequently almost anytihng can be seen to have been significantly influenced by it, such as golf course architecture.

That's what he's tried to do in his essay and particularly in his line of opinion in all these discussions of the A/C Movement and its significant influence on GCA.  Of course he can try to do that---he can try practically any line of reasoning but there's no question in my mind and I'm sure in yours and others that due to our catechism of his "thesis" and his "theory" both he and his thesis and theory have been proven to be historically inaccurate and therefore unsupportable.

But despite all that, I do believe the subject of the influence of "landscape architecture" (perhaps formerly called "landscape design") on both the golf course architecture of the "Golden Age" but particularly far more on the "Modern Age" of golf course architecture is a most fascinating and important topic to discuss.

As Bob Crosby (and me) mentioned pages and pages ago one cannot help but notice that much of the curriculum of golf course architecture as taught today is based on "landscape Architecture" principles or even "art" principles. One only needs to read Cornish and Whitten's important tome "The Architects of Golf" to understand that.

Despite the fact that the A/C Movement did not have a significcant influence on the GCA of the Golden Age the more important subject of whether some of its principles could have an important influence on some golf architecture of the future is still very much worth discussing, in my opinion.

Obviously we are in the midst of a "renaissance" in some areas of golf architecture today and this would be the time to consider these questions for the future.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 11:12:12 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #594 on: January 02, 2006, 11:20:27 AM »
Paul
For someone who claims to be in tune with the A&C movement, your knowledge of its history and sources is a little disapointing.  

...y'otta try some book learn'n...


TomM....I have always represented myself as a practitioner, not a historian, and I teach myself what I need to know to create from....I glean the record for tools to use, not to report on, so my knowledge of things might seem a little skewed from your viewpoint, but they are valid from mine.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #595 on: January 02, 2006, 11:23:07 AM »
"Paul
For someone who claims to be in tune with the A&C movement, your knowledge of its history and sources is a little disapointing.  

...y'otta try some book learn'n..."

Tom MacWood:

For your own credibility and your own reputation you really should stop saying things like that to so many on this website and particularly to Paul Cowley, of all people. That guy has forgotten more about the A/C movement and what it was or is in actual fact than you'll ever know and that you'll ever find out in books and your Ivory Tower 'book learnin'. You've never worked in that field but he has. If that has no meaning to you than you really are an idiot, or arrogant or both---and I can't imagine how anyone on here would ever fail to see that---thank God!

You obviously don't know him but whoever does know him or gets to know him from this webstie will understand in a New York second how childish and how pointless it is for someone like you to say something like that to him.

I've seen a lot of unsubstantiated arrogance in my time but that refrain of yours pretty much takes the cake.

And furthermore, let me hear your take on Astor! Why do you keep avoiding it? :) You mentioned him as some influence on Park jr so let's see you back that up and make your point! ;)

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #596 on: January 02, 2006, 11:41:10 AM »
"TE
The reason I brought out the names of Astor, Vanderbilt, Balfour, Talmedge, Webb, Havermeyer, Riddell, etc. was becasue you appear to think Willie Park II was incapable of absoring the same influences as the well educated Englishmen like Hutchinson, Fowler, Colt, Low, Abercromby. That Park was an uneducated inarticulate uncultured Scot. He was very intelligent and felt very comfortable among those in high society be it New York or London."

Tom MacWood, it's pretty much a waste of time for anyone to have an intelligent discussion with you if and when you say things like that. That remark of yours above about what I think of Park jr is thoroughly and totally DISHONEST on your part.

You just show me where I ever said or implied anything like that about Park jr?? And if you can't then retract that statement above.

No, I think it rather more sounds like you were the one questioning Park jr abilities or inherent talent when you virtually try to imply in both your essay and on here that it must have been Hutchinson, Country Life Magazine and the A/C Movement that TAUGHT Park jr what to do in the Heathlands at Sunningdale and Huntercombe.

It was me who has said Park jr was a fine architect from the Scottish linksland (and that it is he who should be given the credit for the breakthrough in the Heathlands as most golf architectural historian understand and admit) and all he needed to produce the quality of archtiecture he did in the Heathlands was both the time and the money to do so. Again, it's you who's trying to imply he needed Hutchinson, Country Life and the A/C movement or their influence and that's horseshit and it always will be horsehit, although you're apparently incapable of understanding that or admitting it in this mindless fixation you seem to have to hold onto some theory you had which has been proven constantly to be bankrupt.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #597 on: January 02, 2006, 11:50:52 AM »
TomP....I agree that more study of the Geometric Era would be interesting [calling TomM ;)]  because, except for the equestrian connection, it really doesn't make that much sense from a design viewpoint, and for similar reasons I don't see that big of a connection with  LArchs influence over the Golden Age.

When golf moved away from its natural settings and things had to be a little more built....well, as a designer in a form follows function exercise, and I had to re-cloak what I had disturbed ....it would be most easy for me to accomplish this by using things that relate to what existed naturally, [that is why the Geometric Eras solution seems a little off to me] ....how well I pull this off would have greater importance to me than my choice of tools...[let me see, I could do Jap garden, French Formal or Natural to my Surroundings]....a toughie even in those old days ;).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 11:54:36 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #598 on: January 02, 2006, 12:18:47 PM »
Tom MacWood said:

"Park stayed in Astor's home Rhynecliffe...A&C all the way. By the way the Astors, Morgans, Drexels etc spent a great deal of time in London...seeing that it was the financial capital of the world...and during this period, a place of great artistic progress (which was a somewhat unusual phenomenon for the Brits in Western history). Wm Waldorf Astor told the British press: "America is no place for gentlemen.""

Tom MacWood:

Where's Rhynecliffe? Do you mean William and John Jacob "Jack" Astors’ home "Ferncliff" on the Hudson or maybe another Astor home on the Hudson? Or was Rhynecliff something William Waldorf Astor owned in England?

"Wm Waldorf Astor told the British press: "America is no place for gentlemen.""

Tom MacWood:

Do you know why William Waldorf Astor said that? And if you do, what's the point of it in this discussion about the "Arts and Crafts" movement? Was Wm Waldorf Astor a big supporter or proponent of the A/C Movement? Did he know Morris or Rushkin or Horace Hutchinson? Did he play golf or have anything to do with golf or golf archtiecture?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 12:23:36 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #599 on: January 02, 2006, 12:29:34 PM »
TomP ....from memory I think the Astors had an estate on the Hudson near Rhinebeck, NY....but I'm not that interested to hit the books about it ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca