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T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #400 on: December 23, 2005, 08:09:29 AM »
Rich
Your entitled to your opinion, but no one is forcing you to read the thread or to post on it.

What about Stutt...I'd say he deserves as much credit for the work in '46 as anyone.

ForkaB

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #401 on: December 23, 2005, 08:34:20 AM »
As far as I know, Grant, Duncan and McCulloch (in roughly that order) were responsible for the design.  Stutt did the heavy lifting, but as the contractor, probably did a lot in the ground (as is the case today with guys like Urbina, Axland, etc.).  However, as you might have learned from my posts and others on GCA this was a collaborative work, and not some sort of architectural chef d'oeuvre (even though the holes are as fine a stretch of holes as exists in golfdom).  I personally do not care who did what when and how to whom.  If you or others do, so be it.

Slainte!

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #402 on: December 23, 2005, 05:39:30 PM »
"I don't think anyone on here or at Merion at any time denied those reports of Macdonald and Whigam aiding, assisting or advising the committee but what does that mean?"  
 
Response from Tom MacWood;  

"It means they advised the committee."   ???  :P

Tom MacW:

Uhh, right, thanks for the explanation; how incisive. I thought I just said that.  ;)


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #403 on: December 23, 2005, 06:07:13 PM »

"The new course of the Merion Cricket Club is nearing completion of the planning. During the month Mr. CB Macdonald and Mr. HJ Whigham, who have been aiding the committee, visited the course and expressed themselves as being greatly pleased over the prospects."

~~ May 1911 American Golfer.


Tom MacWood,

This above passage is nothing more than a polite acknowledgement, thanking CBM & HW for visiting Merion,and nothing more.

You read into things that which YOU want to believe and not what an unbiased, independent, prudent person would cull from a passage, quote or third party reference.

Is there one shred of evidence detailing any specific involvement on the part of CBM or HW in the process of designing and constructing Merion ?

Has anyone produced drawings or the written words of CBM and HW on the design and/or construction of any specific features or holes ?

Has anyone produced verifiable data that shows the specific extent of their alleged involvement in the design and construction of Merion ?

If not, you have to question the substance of what amounts to nothing more than a vague, public, social thank you note.

Is it possible that the American Golfer was trying to help Merion get established and nothing more ?  And that mentioning CBM and HW would add architectural credibility, especially if they praised the work ?

One would think that if there was some substance to any assistance by CBM and HW that the American Golfer would have written about it in great detail.  Yet, no such articles exist.  

Nothing more than bowing down and"kissing the King's ring" appears to have taken place.

If this is the standard of proof that you accept as verification of your theories, it's tenuous at best, inadequate and unprofessional at the very least.

It's certainly not the hallmark of a legitimate researcher.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #404 on: December 23, 2005, 07:25:14 PM »
Much of the previous dicussion centers around the design and categorization of the old 10th at Merion.

It's been alleged that Charles Blair MacDonald (CBM) and others refered to the old 10th as an "Alps" hole.

In order to gain perspective into CBM's thinking on architecture and the concept of the "Alps" hole in particular,  you have to delve into CBM's past, and his thoughts as manifested through his writings on the subject.

CBM's quotes will be in blue.

CBM's interest in an ideal, or first class golf course dates to 1897 and earlier.  In 1897 he indicated that, to date, no first class courses existed in America.  Amongst his criteria for designing and constructing an ideal, first class course, several factors would have to be a part of the process.  Amongst them, "study".

CBM was intriqued and inspired by a controversy surrounding a question that was put to the leading golfers in Great Britain.

The question was:
"Which do you consider the most testing holes on any course in the UK, having special regard to these salient features:
1 Length
2 Accidents of Harzard.
This question should be answered in respect to the three great classes of holes; namely, those which require one, two and three shots each to reach the putting green"

For a two-shot hole the Alps, or Seventeenth , at Prestwick was the greatest favorite.

I was intensely interested, and it was from this discussion I was urged to carry out the idea of building a classical golf course in America...

In 1902 I went abroad to gather material....
Finally I concluded my conception was feasible.

I labored four years to that end.
In 1904 I again made a study of foreign courses...
In 1906, after four months in Europe, I completed my research studies and brought home with me surveyors' maps of the more famous holes; THE ALPS, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole,....

While abroad in 1906 I started a newspaper controversy regarding an ideal golf links and THE COPYING OF THE GREAT HOLES IN GREAT BRITAIN....

NOW WHY SHOULD NOT ONE TRY TO ABSORB THE SANCTIFIED TRADITION OF EACH PARTICULAR HOLE BY COPYING ITS BEST IN ANOTHER CLIMATE WHERE IN TIME TRADITION MIGHT SANCTIFY ITS EXISTANCE.
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In 1904 CBM when drafting the agreement for membership at NGLA, wrote:

As to the building of the golf course, it is well known that certain holes on certain links abroad are famous as being the best, considering their various lengths.  It is the OBJECT of this association to model EACH of the eighteen holes after the most famous holes abroad, so that each hole would be representative and classic in itself.
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CBM was armed with the many surveyors' maps he acquired and 30 to 40 drawings he had made.

To my mind, an ideal course should have at least six bold bunkers like the Alps at Prestwick,.....
Further, I believe the course would be improved by opening the fair green to one side or the other, giving short or timid players the opportunity to play around the hazard, if so desired, but of course, properly penalized by the loss of distance for so playing.

Without generalizing further on the question of the best holes, following are eighteen holes which occur to me as being about right.  Of course, THE READER MUST ASSUME THAT THE RUN OF THE GROUND AND HAZARDS ARE CORRECT:

# 17  380 yards  Resembling 17th, or Alps, Prestwick.
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Continued on my next post.
 



T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #405 on: December 23, 2005, 07:42:01 PM »


Tom MacWood,

This above passage is nothing more than a polite acknowledgement, thanking CBM & HW for visiting Merion,and nothing more.

Whose polite acknowledgment? The author? That is an interesting perspective you have? Were all the other reports polite acknowledgements too? :)

You read into things that which YOU want to believe and not what an unbiased, independent, prudent person would cull from a passage, quote or third party reference.

Whatever you say Pat. When you have three different sources its a little harder to write them all off as polite acknwoledgments. :)

Is there one shred of evidence detailing any specific involvement on the part of CBM or HW in the process of designing and constructing Merion ?

There is no evidence that any of the committee or CBM or HW did anything.

Has anyone produced drawings or the written words of CBM and HW on the design and/or construction of any specific features or holes ?

There is no drawings or design instructions from anyone. Who designed the course in your opinion.

Has anyone produced verifiable data that shows the specific extent of their alleged involvement in the design and construction of Merion ?

How many questions are you going to ask. I again I repeat can you addd anything, anything at all of substance to this thread?

Is it possible that the American Golfer was trying to help Merion get established and nothing more ?  And that mentioning CBM and HW would add architectural credibility, especially if they praised the work ?

You obviously are not familar with situation at Merion, and why they moved in the first place.

One would think that if there was some substance to any assistance by CBM and HW that the American Golfer would have written about it in great detail.  Yet, no such articles exist.  

Nothing more than bowing down and"kissing the King's ring" appears to have taken place.

If this is the standard of proof that you accept as verification of your theories, it's tenuous at best, inadequate and unprofessional at the very least.

It's certainly not the hallmark of a legitimate researcher.
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 07:43:16 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #406 on: December 23, 2005, 08:23:10 PM »
CBM goes on to say:

Having the stage all set and definitely knowing what I wanted to accomplish, with maps, sketches, and descriptions of all the more famous holes in Great Britain ......I continued my search to find the property on which it was possible to build the classic golf course.

The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it  as best to serve our purpose' selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted.

WE FOUND AN ALPS...

I first placed the golf holes which were almost unanimously considered the finest of their character in Great Britain.
We found a setting for the ALPS hole which Whighams, fine golfers, who were brought up in Prestwick, considered to be superior to the original type.
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CBM goes on to describe the Alps hole and pays particular attention to the DEFINING feature of the hole.

When the player hits his second shot across the SUMMIT of the SADDLE BACK HILL CALLED "THE ALPS he is completely in doubt about the result.
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In 1910, Bernard Darwin writes the following in his description of the Alps.

The "Alps" one of the finest holes anywhere, and the finest blind hole in golf.  The drive must be hit straight and true DOWN INTO A VALLEY BETWEEN TWO HILLS, and then comes the second OVER a VAST GRASSY HILL, beyond which we know there is a bunker both deep and wide.....
[/COLOR]

So here we have CBM, studying the great holes of the UK for years.  He visits them, he sketches them, he discusses them and feels that his concept of replicating them not only has merit, but will produce the first, and only, ideal, first class golf course in America.

And, over and over again he references the Alps hole, the 17th at Prestwick.

He designs his Alps hole, the 3rd at NGLA and declares, along with others, that it's superior to the 17th at Prestwick.
He designs it with an alternate escape route.

Now all of this takes place from 1897 to 1911 when NGLA is finally opened for play.

Now, while all of this is going on, in 1910 young Hugh Wilson is chosen to make a survey of great British courses in preperation to designing and building Merion East.

Wilson spends seven (7) months in Scotland and England and returns to America with the benefit of the experience of seeing these courses first hand, together with sketches and notes.

So, the time line is clear,  CBM spends from 1897 or earlier to 1906 and later, studying the great courses of the UK and the great holes of those courses, including the Alps at Prestwick, declared the best two-shot hole in all of the world.

In 1908 he begins his efforts to build NGLA.

In 1910 Bernard Darwin writes a description of the Alps hole.

In 1910 Hugh Wilson begins his journey to build Merion

NGLA is finished in 1911
Merion is finished in 1912.

Does anyone believe that Darwin, CBM and Flynn weren't keenly aware of the component architectural pieces, together with the topography required to construct an Alps hole ?

Does anyone believe that the DZ on the old 10th at Merion was down in a valley between two hills ?

Does anyone believe that the drive was to an elevated DZ ?

Does anyone believe that the second shot at the old 10th at Merion had to be hit over a VAST grassy HILL ?

OVER the SUMMIT of the SADDLE BACK HILL called the ALPS ?

If we view the old 10th at Merion in the context of 1912, the year the golf course opened, what other Alps holes existed at that time.   The 17th at Prestwick.   The 3rd at NGLA.

Do either of those holes bear the slightest resemblence to the old 10th at Merion ?

Had any of those making the allegation that the old 10th at Merion was an Alps hole actually seen the 17th at Prestwick and the 3rd at NGLA ?  Possibly the only two holes in the world from which the comparison could be made, circa 1912.

Review the photo, circa 1924 and let me know what you think.

I conclude that categorizing the old 10th at Merion, circa 1912 as an Alps hole is preposterous.

I think that the body of evidence, known to Darwin, Wilson, CBM and others would preclude any such categorization, unless, they weren't familiar with # 17 at Prestwick and # 3 at NGLA, or, if it was third party hearsay, absent first hand experience.

But, that's just my opinion, and unfortunately it makes sense to TEPaul.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 08:59:36 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #407 on: December 23, 2005, 08:48:11 PM »


Tom MacWood,

This above passage is nothing more than a polite acknowledgement, thanking CBM & HW for visiting Merion,and nothing more.
[/color]

Whose polite acknowledgment? The author? That is an interesting perspective you have? Were all the other reports polite acknowledgements too? :)

Which ones ?
Could you identify them, being specific and confining your response to the issue at hand, the declaration that the 10th at Merion was acknowledged as an Alps hole, and that CBM and HW took an active part in the design and construction of the golf course.

If you have no proof, I"d suggest that your thoughts are merely a theory, absent any concrete, documented proof.
[/color]

You read into things that which YOU want to believe and not what an unbiased, independent, prudent person would cull from a passage, quote or third party reference.
[/color]

Whatever you say Pat. When you have three different sources its a little harder to write them all off as polite acknwoledgments. :)

Which ones ?  Could you list them ?
Could you cite the reference, paying close attention to factual details, the precise citations of their active involvement with the design and construction work at Merion.
[/color]

Is there one shred of evidence detailing any specific involvement on the part of CBM or HW in the process of designing and constructing Merion ?
[/color]

There is no evidence that any of the committee or CBM or HW did anything.

I didn't ask you about anybody else.  I asked you about CBM and HW.  Is there ANY specific evidence to demonstrate that they were actively involved in either the design or construction of Merion ?  

Absent FACTUAL PROOF, how can you determine what their roles were ?  Or, if they ever had one in the first place?

How about Hugh Wilson, is there any evidence that he was involved ?



Has anyone produced drawings or the written words of CBM and HW on the design and-or construction of any specific features or holes ?
[/color]

There is no drawings or design instructions from anyone. Who designed the course in your opinion.


So your position is that there is no evidence that Wilson and Flynn had anything to do with the design and construction of the golf course ?
[/color]
]

Has anyone produced verifiable data that shows the specific extent of their alleged involvement in the design and construction of Merion ?
[/color]

How many questions are you going to ask. I again I repeat can you addd anything, anything at all of substance to this thread?

As many as I have to to get you to admit that you have no factual proof, not one shred of evidence to support your wild claims.  Your theory wilts under scrutiny and/or questioning.

Before I posted you never even knew that CBM designed Alps holes with escape routes so that the lesser player could avoid the challenge of the ALPS.   I was shocked that you didn't know that.  I'd say that was a substantive bit of information, especially for you   ;D
[/color]

Is it possible that the American Golfer was trying to help Merion get established and nothing more ?  And that mentioning CBM and HW would add architectural credibility, especially if they praised the work ?
[/color]

You obviously are not familar with situation at Merion, and why they moved in the first place.

The above response doesn't answer the question
[/color]

One would think that if there was some substance to any assistance by CBM and HW that the American Golfer would have written about it in great detail.  Yet, no such articles exist.  

Nothing more than bowing down and"kissing the King's ring" appears to have taken place.

If this is the standard of proof that you accept as verification of your theories, it's tenuous at best, inadequate and unprofessional at the very least.

It's certainly not the hallmark of a legitimate researcher.
[/color]

« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 08:56:58 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #408 on: December 23, 2005, 11:33:18 PM »
Pat
Nice try. It is obvious you know little or nothing about the history of the Merion Cricket Club. They did not need to attract members. Your theory that Macdonald was only brought in for his name is rediculous and frankly insulting to CBM (another architect insulted in a desperate attempt to make a case). Yours is a desperate shot in the dark.

Your question regarding Wilson and Flynn only reinforces your confusion about their early course. If you look back through this thread you will see that even Wayne does not know who designed the original course. If you are going to give out out conjecture the least you could do is know the history of the subject. :)

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #409 on: December 24, 2005, 09:13:38 AM »
Tom MacWood writes:

"There is no evidence that any of the committee or CBM or HW did anything.
How about Hugh Wilson, is there any evidence that he was involved ?
Has anyone produced drawings or the written words of CBM and HW on the design and-or construction of any specific features or holes ?
There is no drawings or design instructions from anyone. Who designed the course in your opinion."

These questions and statements are just more examples of the manner in which Tom MacWood seems to assume if design and construction details were not recorded specifically and in writing they couldn't have happened, depending on he's speaking of at any time.  ;)

Unfortunately, the sketches and drawings for Merion East that Wilson did in his seven month study in GB seem to have been lost as were Macdonald's of NGLA. The reports of his sketches and drawings that were to be applied to Merion East "in principle" have been reported from the beginning. Because they are now lost are we to assume that they never existed and that consequently there is no evidence that Wilson and his committee did anything at Merion East as Tom MacWood just contented?

Of course, that's preposterous. Since it appears they may not have kept exact records of the construction of Merion East in 1911-1916 (Alan Wilson did write a general report about the early construction of Merion East) we need to depend on reports like this one from Richard Francis from 1950 as logical examples of how the course was designed and built and who did it:

"Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course."

Is this not an example of the work that was going on by Wilson and Francis and the committee every day from the spring of 1911 until the course began to be seeded in the Fall? Should we assume that Francis was the only one spending hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field? It would seem to be pretty illogical to assume that, wouldn't it?

Is this report from the author of Merion's history a fabrication because it does not contain greater detail?

"A GREAT TEAM
Beside the expertise of Francis, Wilson had a first-class crew. Superivisng construction was Merion East's first greenkeeper, William S. Flynn, who had been groundkeeper with the Cricket Club. (Later documents mention Frederick Pickering as a Merion construction foreman). Also involved was Howard C. Toomey, another groundkeeper....and a civil engineer."

The author of the Merion history goes on to describe the manner in which bunkering was laid out at Merion by Wilson, Flynn and Valentine. Was Macdonald and Whigam there for that? No one ever mentioned that but they certainly have always mentioned Wilson, his committee, Flynn, Toomey, Pickering, Valentine. GIven, that are we to assume that there's no evidence that Wilson, his committee, Flynn, Toomey, Valentine et al did nothing?  ;)

Is that all a fabrication? Of course not. Those men lived there and they worked on the course every day to buld it beginning in the spring of 1911, to see it seeded in the fall of 1911 and open for play in the fall of 1912. Many of them continued to work on the architecture of the course for the next twently years. They were there every day, that's what they were doing.

Macdonald and Whigam were from New York. Did they spend hours at Merion over a drawing board and running instruments in the field and just plain talking as Francis did with the committee and others who worked on the course everyday? Of course not, they didn't come from Philadelphia. Was Wilson and his committee on the phone to Macdonald and Whigam every day? No evidence of that. ;) Matter of fact a few years later Wilson declared in a letter what a difficult man Macdonald was to communicate with on by letter or on the phone. There seems to be two, perhaps three instances of them visiting the Merion East site spaced out over a few years. It says they declared they were impressed by the prospects and the progress.

Wilson, committee, Flynn, Toomey, Pickering, Valentine were there every day working on the course.

What does logic tell you from that about the golf course?  ;)

It seems from what was reported from Macdonald that he felt the site was a good one for a course perhaps in 1910 or in the spring of 1911 (the course was just beginning construction) and another time when he pronounced the course perhaps one of the best in the country.

Tom MacWood mentioned regarding Pine Valley that he felt a man who spend one week at that course should be given equal design billing with a man who spent practically every day there for five solid years running the project. Now Tom MacWood apparently wants to imply something more than probably was contributed by men who apparently showed up 2-3 times over a period a few years for a day or less each time.

And now he's accusing Pat Mucci of insulting Macdonald---and for what?

Tom MacWood, the researcher and golf architecture analyst needs a really good lesson in both logic and common sense, in my opinion.

Matter of fact, for whatever reason, probably just lack of knowledge, Tom MacWood appears to be relatively insulting of the architectural talents of Merion's Hugh Wilson, a man another great Philadelphia architect, George Thomas, mentioned in his own book;

"I always considered Hugh Wilson, of Merion, Pennsylvania, as one of the best or our architects, professional or amateur. He taught me many things at Merion and Philadelphia Muncipal; and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them."


Do you see that Tom MacW----Wilson ADVISED Thomas when he was building his first California courses. I don't see that those who were actually building Merion East mentioned Macdonald and Whigam ADVISED them after that initial visit of Wilson's to NGLA before going to England, although certainly others said they did. But Thomas HIMSELF mentioned in his own book that Wilson ADVISED him on his first California courses. Does that mean credit for the design of Riviera and LA C.C. should now go to Philadelphia's Hugh Wilson?? And if so how much? Since the extent of it doesn't appear to specifically recorded does that mean Wilson should get a lot, or some of none at all?? And what would you say about Thomas and Bell out there who worked on those California courses from beginning to end, as Wilson did until he died at Merion and Crump did until he died at PVGC?   ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 09:43:57 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #410 on: December 24, 2005, 09:43:30 AM »
...OK...enoughs enough...since I can offer little new within this debate, there is one new thing I can do outside of it.

I am going to dedicate all my talent to make the soon to be constructed 16th hole at 'Ricefields' the best ALPS hole yet....even better than Prestwick or NGLA.

...y'all are invited down to add to the effort or just continue your discourse on site in the open air.

Earthwork should be starting in late Jan with final shaping by the end of Feb....I would be happy to help secure food and lodging........I'll even refill your flasks.
The site is between Savannah and St. Simons Is., Ga.

Merry Xmas to all!..........p :)ul
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:24:00 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #411 on: December 24, 2005, 09:51:24 AM »
Paul:

It will never be enough until this exaggerating agenda-driven revisionist admits that's what he'd doing or until it's completely exposed that's what he's doing. I would doubt he's capable of ever admitting it but it sure looks like he's been almost completely exposed for doing it. His constant repititions and constant refrain that the rest don't understand the subject or that they're insulting Macdonald has gotten pretty trite. ;) :)

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #412 on: December 24, 2005, 10:27:05 AM »
TE
Let me correct you, the questions were Pat’s.

Calm down, no one is saying Hugh Wilson did nothing, what I am saying is no one knows precisely who designed what. Attribution is vague; the committee designed the course, Macdonald and Whigham advised.


Francis quote: "Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course."

Well we know Francis made one contribution…the picture is much clearer now. Did his contribution involve purchasing additional land?

Quote from Tullhurst author of Merion history: “Beside the expertise of Francis, Wilson had a first-class crew. Superivisng construction was Merion East's first greenkeeper, William S. Flynn, who had been groundkeeper with the Cricket Club. (Later documents mention Frederick Pickering as a Merion construction foreman). Also involved was Howard C. Toomey, another groundkeeper....and a civil engineer."

TE says:”The author of the Merion history goes on to describe the manner in which bunkering was laid out at Merion by Wilson, Flynn and Valentine. The author of the story goes on say many things….”


…like Hugh Wilson grasped these principles (the famous holes of Great Britain) better than CB Macdonald, and that Wilson designed the East and West courses at Merion. And fails to mention one of the key contributors Pickering.

TE:Was Macdonald and Whigam there for that?

The author says a lot of things. I don’t think anyone knows if Macdonald & HJ were there for that, because it’s unclear when that story actually occurred. I find it odd that Pickering was not included in the story (since he was in charge of construction)....it makes me wonder if it took place later on. What is the source of the bed-sheets story and when did it occure? Do you know if Wayne included that in his Merion history?

TE:Macdonald and Whigam were from New York. Did they spend hours at Merion over a drawing board and running instruments in the field and just plain talking as Francis did with the committee and others who worked on the course everyday? Of course not, they didn't come from Philadelphia. Was Wilson and his committee on the phone to Macdonald and Whigam every day? No evidence of that.  Matter of fact a few years later Wilson declared in a letter what a difficult man Macdonald was to communicate with on by letter or on the phone. There seems to be two, perhaps three instances of them visiting the Merion East site spaced out over a few years. It says they declared they were impressed by the prospects and the progress.

No one knows precisely what the parties did. If you cut through all the conjecture and hypothesis, you are left with the fact that the committee (led by Wilson) designed the course, with Macdonald and Whigham advising. It may not exactly match the long held Philadelphia legend/story, but I don't believe it is insulting to Hugh Wilson.



« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:20:02 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #413 on: December 24, 2005, 11:24:58 AM »
"…like Hugh Wilson grasped these principles (the famous holes of Great Britain) better than CB Macdonald did, and that Wilson designed the East and West courses at Merion. And fails to mention one of the key contributors Pickering."

Tom MacW:

Do you ever actually READ the responses of others on here? You asked me that about 2-3 pages ago and I answered you. Tolhurst did not say (or mean to say) that Wilson understood these principles (the famous hole of Great Britain) better than Macdonald did. He merely mentioned that Wilson used those hole "in principle" more than Macdonald did at NGLA. In other words, those template holes at Merion were not as exact or idenifiable copies of those famous holes of Great Britain as they were at NGLA.

This is probably just another good reason you shouldn't be saying some of the things you do about golf courses you've never even laid eyes on.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #414 on: December 24, 2005, 11:41:18 AM »
Tollhurst: "It has been said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scotish and English course design and conveyed them in his his work better than Charles Blair Macdoanld did."

TE: He merely mentioned that Wilson used those hole "in principle" more than Macdonald did at NGLA. In other words, those template holes at Merion were not as exact or idenifiable copies of those famous holes of Great Britain as they were at NGLA.

TM:That is an interesting and creative interpretation on your part...I don't read it that way. Notice the word 'better'.

Anyway you cut it its all conjecture.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 11:42:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #415 on: December 24, 2005, 11:53:17 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Can you cite ANY specific evidence that proves that CBM and HW actively participated in the design and construction of Merion ?

This question has been asked of you, time and time again.
And yet, you conspicuously avoid answering it.  
You have never offered one Iota, not one scintilla of evidence to support your theory.

Why is that.

The answer, which you won't provide is:  
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE.

Your convoluted and self serving methodology is to make a wild declaration and demand that it be disproved, rather than have yourself provide documentation, facts and proof which can confirm and/or support your declarations.

What you don't know, or are unwilling to recognize is the following.

Just because a club existed, or was succesful in the past, is NO guarantee that it will remain succesful in the future.
Many forces conspire to bring about the demise of successful clubs, organizations and corporations.  
Lido might be a prime example.

A number of clubs that relocated or reorganized failed.
Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp ?

Merion didn't have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight from self proclaimed expert researchers in Ohio in the year 2005.
They had no way on knowing that the club would be successful in the times that lay ahead.
All of these ventures were tenuous, irrespective of the prior memberships and participation on the part of the wealthy.

You can insist on continuing to state that myself and others know nothing, but, the truth is, you have yet to provide one solitary shred of specific evidence that documents CBM's and HW's active involvement in the design and construction of Merion.

As TEPaul said, you grasp at straws and lack common sense, but continue to espouse wild theories as fact and toot your own horn.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #416 on: December 24, 2005, 11:58:46 AM »

Tollhurst: "It has been said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scotish and English course design and conveyed them in his his work better than Charles Blair Macdoanld did."

This is your failing, you expert researcher you.

Tollhurst didn't say that.
Tollhurst was quoting others, third parites and hearsay.

Had Tollhurst said, " I believe that ..... better than MacDonald, that would be one thing, but HE DIDN"T.

He was referencing others.

And, who were those others ?

Parties with a vested interest ?
Parties annoyed with CBM's demeanor ?

You don't know.

And therein lies the problem.

You take a quote out of context, misrepresent who said what, and offer it up as proof positive to support your point.

[/color]

« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 12:00:10 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #417 on: December 24, 2005, 12:57:31 PM »

Can you cite ANY specific evidence that proves that CBM and HW actively participated in the design and construction of Merion ?

The evidence is vague regarding who did what with the design and construction of Merion. That is the reason Wayne has avoided specific attributions. It was reported by numerous sources that the committee (led by Wilson) designed the course, with Macdonald and Whigham advising. That's my view.

The answer, which you won't provide is:  
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE.


Evidence of what? I would begger to differ that there is no evidence. The reports at the time are consistant...there is very good evidence that the committee designed the course, with M&W advising. I will grant you there is no evidence that Wilson, Macdonald or anyone specific was THE designer.

Just because a club existed, or was succesful in the past, is NO guarantee that it will remain succesful in the future.
Many forces conspire to bring about the demise of successful clubs, organizations and corporations.


Lido? Pat, it is obvious you don't have clue about the history of Merion. If you are going to interject yourself into these historical discussions (and you don't have any facts to add) the least you could do is to bring a basic understanding the course's history.

 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 12:58:03 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #418 on: December 24, 2005, 01:01:15 PM »

Tollhurst: "It has been said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scotish and English course design and conveyed them in his his work better than Charles Blair Macdoanld did."

This is your failing, you expert researcher you.

Tollhurst didn't say that.
Tollhurst was quoting others, third parites and hearsay.

Had Tollhurst said, " I believe that ..... better than MacDonald, that would be one thing, but HE DIDN"T.

He was referencing others.

And, who were those others ?

Parties with a vested interest ?
Parties annoyed with CBM's demeanor ?

You don't know.

And therein lies the problem.

You take a quote out of context, misrepresent who said what, and offer it up as proof positive to support your point.

[/color]


Pat
Is that right. I asked TE if there was a source for that quote or if that was Tollhurst's view. He said it was Tollhurst's view.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 01:01:40 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #419 on: December 24, 2005, 01:57:01 PM »

Can you cite ANY specific evidence that proves that CBM and HW actively participated in the design and construction of Merion ?

The evidence is vague regarding who did what with the design and construction of Merion. That is the reason Wayne has avoided specific attributions. It was reported by numerous sources that the committee (led by Wilson) designed the course, with Macdonald and Whigham advising. That's my view.

What, specifically, did they advise on ?


The answer, which you won't provide is:  
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE.


Evidence of what? I would begger to differ that there is no evidence. The reports at the time are consistant...there is very good evidence that the committee designed the course, with M&W advising.[/color]

What, specifically, did they advise on ?
[/color]

I will grant you there is no evidence that Wilson, Macdonald or anyone specific was THE designer.


Okay, so what specific designs and features did they advise on ?

If you can't state with any degree of certainty, the scope and specifics of their work or active involvement, then you can't conclude that their roles were anything more than that of passive cheerleaders or moral supporters, which, is far better than being an athletic supporter.

To state otherwise would be a departure from the known facts.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 02:01:55 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #420 on: December 24, 2005, 02:03:19 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Then TEPaul is wrong and you have my appology.


T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #421 on: December 24, 2005, 02:14:26 PM »
Pat
You say TE is wrong, OK then who said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scotish and English course design and conveyed them in his his work better than Charles Blair Macdoanld?

What part don't you understand about "The evidence is vague regarding who did what with the design and construction of Merion. That is the reason Wayne has avoided specific attributions" ?

Your head appears to be particularly thick today. Again, no one knows precisely who did what at Merion....the reports credit the committee for the design, Macdonald & Whigham advising. That is all we know...unless you've discovered something new in your research. We are also very interested in your theory about the club involving Macdonald as a publicity stunt to help attract new members. :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 02:17:03 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #422 on: December 24, 2005, 03:21:27 PM »
"Pat
You say TE is wrong, OK then who said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scotish and English course design and conveyed them in his his work better than Charles Blair Macdoanld?"

Tom MacWood:

I don't know who Desmond Tolhurst was referring to when he said Wilson understood the principles of those holes from Great Britain better than MacDonald did. The way Tolhurst phrased it was; "It has been said......

Apparently that's what some said in that day and age. Perhaps you're not aware of it but it was not universally popular or admired to actually copy holes (from Europe). Macdonald himself in his book obviously found it necessary to mention both why he did it and how he did it, apparently to defend the modus operandi from criticism.

The point is Merion's East's holes if they are some form of "in principle" copies of holes from Great Britain they are a whole lot less obvious than Macdonald's template holes at NGLA and later. Tolhurst describes Merion East's holes not "out and out copies". He calls them far more "original", and that's what some back then admired more about Wilson's Merion East compared to the more exact hole copies Macdonald did.

My sense is that Macdonald and Whigam probably came down to Merion before the course was built and deemed the land to be suitable for a course and seemingly came again when the course was just under construction and deemed what they saw as good holes. Perhaps they came again when it was done and approved of what they saw. That's what those "advised" reports sound like to me.

What you've never understood, Tom MacW, is what it means in golf architectural design when a person or people who are the designers spend practically every day on a course while it's being designed and built. You've just never fathomed what 'many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field, constantly talking' etc means in golf course architecture. All you seem to fixate on is what you perceive to be someone's name or reputation and you seem to assume that those building the course are just waiting around to be told what to do by him even if he's in New York while the golf course is being designed and built.

Pickering? We did give him credit, but he was a construction foreman and although Wilson thought he was a good one he also explained he was a pretty regularly drunk one and no one knows if he actually designed anything at Merion as Flynn definitely did after 1915 or so and perhaps from the beginning.

Tom MacW, have you ever read Geoff Shackelford's Riviera history book?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 03:28:28 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #423 on: December 24, 2005, 03:29:14 PM »
Could someone do a precis of this and send it to me?  It seems fascinating, but at the speed this site loads once the USA is on line I haven't the time to wade through every page.  Besides, I may fail to get on my knees by the crib at midnight - which falls earlier here than it does for you on the other side of the pond.  Happy Christmas, when it comes!


T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #424 on: December 24, 2005, 03:29:37 PM »
"TE
Who said that Wilson grasped the principles better than Macdonald? Is that Tollhurst's opinion and would you agree?"

Tom MacW:

I believe that would be Desmond Tolhurst who said that and that would be his own opinion as the writer of that history book on Merion. My own opinion is that Tolhurst probably did not mean to say that Wilson grasped the "principles" of those holes or of architecture better (in the sense of understanding the essence or concept of them better) than Macdonald did but that Wilson built holes at Merion that actually looked less like their European models (or the NGLA template holes) but were merely "similar to", inspired by", "reminiscent of" the basic strategic makeup or strategic concept of those European models. This distinction has been fairly obvious in so much of the writing of many of those early architects---and I just can't understand why some today have such a difficult time understanding what they meant. It's not that complicated, unless one just chooses to make it so.