News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Michael Hayes

More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« on: December 05, 2005, 10:43:58 AM »
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Ian Andrew

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2005, 11:02:53 AM »
That photo is in the maintenance building.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2005, 11:20:30 AM »
It's also in Geoff's Golden Age of Golf Architecture.

TEPaul

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2005, 12:03:52 PM »
If you want a big copy of that aerial photo all you have to do is go to the Hagley Musuem in Wilmington De. and order a copy. The Hagley owns the Victor Dallin aerial collection which includes hundreds and hundreds of old aerials of courses from 1924 to 1939 in and around this region. A big one won't cost more than $50.

JESII

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2005, 12:22:22 PM »
Well Tom, I'd say that piece of information will have the opposite effect on this seller as the information you guys threw around about that last item, wouldn't you?

Boy, if I was selling this I would have called you and written you in for 25% for talking this up as some rare never before seen relic that must be worth loads. Or maybe I'd have just sent over a case of your favorite ;).

JESII

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2005, 12:37:17 PM »
I think the opinion is based on the club paying for those sketches Colt may have done. Wasn't he paid $10,000 or something as a consultant (TEP?).

What was the basis for the Shinnecock Indians losing rights to their land? Did they sell it?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 12:37:40 PM by JES II »

TEPaul

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2005, 12:44:15 PM »
"...just playing Devil's Advocate...don't shoot the messenger...even with a bow and arrow... "

Man, you really are some kind of legal advocate, aren't you Shivas? If PVGC wants the Colt drawing, like anyone else, they have to pay for it. Somehow it got out of their hands at some point and if it gets back in their hands they'll get it the same way anyone else would.

As for the Shinnecock Indians and their recent claim and lawsuit, if you as a legal advocate think their situation is similar to PVGC's and this Colt map or vice versa then why don't you legally recommend that the Shinnecock Indians make Shinnecock G.C, NGLA and Sebonack an offer to purchase all their land?  ;)

Sully:

This Colt map may be one of a kind. As I said, anyone can go buy a copy of that aerial at the Hagley Museum. The original of that aerial is not the one on eBay. The original of that aerial is in the Hagley Museum.

ForkaB

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2005, 01:00:11 PM »
Shivas

Don't you get it, man?

That "Colt" drawing was the fake.  Tom P and Tommy N and Wayne M et. al. were just getting it bid up so they could split the proceeeds with their favorite bartender.

The photo is the real thing.  Shot by Max Behr himself while wing-walking on a biplane!  It could be worth millions!  TEP is going to buy it for a song and then try to trade it to the Shinnecock tribe for the rights to all their land on Long Island.  I can't wait to see the look on Mr. Pascuzzi's face when Tom shows up at Sebonack and says:

"Hiya, Mike.  I'm your new landlord."

TEPaul

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2005, 01:01:28 PM »
"I think the opinion is based on the club paying for those sketches Colt may have done. Wasn't he paid $10,000 or something as a consultant (TEP?)."

Sully:

The story is that Crump paid Colt $10,000 to come to PVGC and do whatever he did there or for the club's course. The only known source of the story of that payment comes from a man by the name of Joseph Baker who for years lived at PVGC, was a very good friend of Crump's, and incidentally was the man Crump went to Europe with when Crump purportedly went to study architecture for three months in 1910-11, among other things. The only oddoty of that $10,000 payment of Crump's to Colt is apparently the first time anyone ever heard that was went Baker wrote it in a PVGC remembrance in 1950 almost forty years after the fact. Jim Finegan in his PVGC history book of 2000 implies that perhaps Baker who was in 1950 a very old man may've gotten somewhat confused about all that. It's hard to say at this point. One thing I do know is that no one else has ever been able to remotely corroborate that payment---not from Colt's side and not from PV's side. There certainly is no financial entry of any kind like that in PVGC's financial records which are all pretty much intact.

"What was the basis for the Shinnecock Indians losing rights to their land? Did they sell it?"

Who the hell knows? The White Man wasn't all that fair to the American Indians, generally speaking, as I'm sure most of us know. They may've taken that land from them or perhaps they did pay them something. Even if they did pay them something I think we also know the White Man could be a pretty tough negotiator when it came to the Indians. Hence the sale of Manhattan Island for app. $26. Let's say the Indians sue for the return to them of Manhattan Island and get it. At that point they'll probably owe capital gains taxes of about 29 kagillion dollars and when they go to resell it they'll have to negotiate the The Donald and everyone knows that The Donald's "Art of the Deal" is no bowl of cherries for sellers!  ;)

TEPaul

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2005, 01:06:57 PM »
"Why, then, in our collective hearts of hearts, don't we think the same thing about the Shinnecock land?  That's all I'm asking..."

Shiv:

Obviously you keep missing the most important part. If you think there's some similarity to the land in and around Shinnecock and Southampton with the Shinnecock Indians to PVGC and this Colt map then why don't you, even in your heart of hearts, recommend that the Shinnecock Indians just pay for that land?  ;)

Furthermore, if GOLFCLUBATLASERS are as out to lunch on their facts and details about golf course architecture as they have been on here over this Colt map it's pretty laughable, is all I can say.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 01:11:55 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2005, 01:43:14 PM »
From the add page:
Quote
** Good condition, very little wear.  Upper left has slight 'flashbulb' glare that appears to be part of original photograph.  It is difficult to photograph this item clearly due to the glossy finish of the print.  If anyone is interested I will take pictures from various additional angles - just email me.  THIS IS AN ORIGINAL PHOTO - not a reproduction - it was used by the employees of Pine Valley during planning.  (More detail can be made available for authentication if desired).

From Tom Paul:
Quote
This Colt map may be one of a kind. As I said, anyone can go buy a copy of that aerial at the Hagley Museum. The original of that aerial is not the one on eBay. The original of that aerial is in the Hagley Museum.


SPDB

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2005, 01:50:17 PM »
Is anyone else bothered by the appearance of misrepresentations
of the document's provenance juxtaposed with excerpts from
Golf Club Atlas.com?

JESII

Re:More Pine Valley history on ebay...
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2005, 02:55:33 PM »
Is anyone else bothered by the appearance of misrepresentations
of the document's provenance juxtaposed with excerpts from
Golf Club Atlas.com?

Are you referring to my post or this from the same add page?
Quote
excerpts taken from: golf club atlas website

Tags: