Pebble Beach Golf Links

[Bob_Huntley]

Do you think that #7 is a world class par three?  In my modest opinion, it can't hold CPC's #15 jock.  
   

Lou,

What on earth are you smoking today? When the winner of the US Open cannot hit the green with a short iron, it has to have some significant merit.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I doubt that it is my #5, only that I could better understand others believing that it is.    

Gotcha.  I can live with that as well.  I really think when one gets inside the Top 20 or so, it's going to come down to personal preference issues.  

Now if you tell me PB doesn't belong in the Top 20, well we might have some 'splainin' to do.

BTW when I try to rank these in terms my own personal top whatever, PB never cracks the Top 3.  But it's also never out of the top 7.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

I've always played PB from the back tees and yes, I've found # 2, # 6 and # 18 to all be terrific par 5's.

And, their diversity is without parallel.

I don't know what you look for in a par 5, but, here's what I like about the above three at PB.

# 2

The pressure to hit a good drive.
The decision to go for the green.
The configuration of the arroyo and the green and surrounding area.

# 6 is majestic.
From the tee shot, to the assault on the rampart second fairway, the skyline effect and the green and its surrounds high on the bluff.

# 18

The risk-reward on the tee.
The risk reward on the second shot.
The approach to the green surrounded by sand and sea.

And, to add to all three, the WIND.

These are three terrific holes.

I can't understand the reluctance for people to give them their due.

Is it jealousy, bias, ignorance or other non-golf related factors ?

I'm truely puzzled.

[Jason Blasberg]

Jason,

If Pebble Beach had as many weak holes as you claim, it wouldn't make the top 200, let alone the top 10.

Let's compare the two courses in general

Par 3's

Do you really believe that PD's par 3's are in the same league with PB's ?

Par 5's

PD only has two, PB four.

Do you really feel that # 7 and # 17 compare more favorably then # 2, # 6, # 14 and # 18 ?

Par 4's

Would you say that # 8 is PD's best ?

How do you feel about # 3, # 4, # 8, # 9, # 10 at PB ?

Can you name any par 4's at PD that match the above Par 4's at PB ?

Prairie Dunes is certainly a wonderful golf course, but, you've been out in the sun too long, or deprived of food, water and sleep if you think it's superior to Pebble Beach.  

Pat, if I were a better searcher on this site I'd pull up my old match play that goes through things hole by hole, and I don't want to recreate it again but I'll comment generally:

PD 3 pars, 2 and 10 are better than anything at PB, 5 and 15 are a tie with 17 and one step behind 7 (I happen to love 7) and ahead of 5 and 12.

Par 5s, surely more does not mean better, I hope that was a joke on your part that only two was a criticism  

I think the par 5s at PD are stronger as a group than PB which gets killed by #2.  PDs 5 pars are a step behind #18, tie #6, beat #14 and slaughter #2.  

Par 4s, #8 at PDs is every bit as good as any par 4 at PB, including PB's 8.      

[Lou_Duran]

Bob,

I haven't had a good smoke for countless years.  It is possible that the artic spell we're under is having an impact.

When is #7 difficult to hit in regulation?  When the wind blows really hard.  When it blows 5 - 15 mph it is a mere wedge or SW.

I will say that the green complex is demanding, and though small, if one is long with the pin on the short R, it can be very difficult to two-putt.  I really do like #7 for its unmatched beauty and uniqueness.  But from the standpoint of a world-class short one shotter, give me CPC's 15 or Sand Hills 17.

Pat,

I don't agree with your characterization of #2.  At least, it has not had the impact on me,

You may have something on #6, particularly on the second shot.  But if you've played the hole repeatedly, is there really that much strategy?  If it is dry at the bottom and the ball rolls, you can challenge the right side and get home in two.  If not, you pull out a long iron and hit it high and left for a short shot in.

Is #18 strategic?  Perhaps for the long bombers, but for most of us we aim at the trees, probably with a 3-wood if conditions are favorable.  The second shot is center left, and unless the pin is short right and the shot is not layed back 130y+, it is a comfortable short iron to the middle of the green.  Remember, in evaluating courses and architecture, we shouldn't let the setting (the Pacific, the reputation of the course, the Tap Room, the bag drop) cloud our judgement.

BTW, does getting inside the ball mentally so of speak really help?  I am desperate.
 

[Jason Blasberg]

Pat:

4 pars cont., overall I find the 4 pars at PD as good or better to those at PB.  #1 and #15 drag PB down IMO.  

Overall,

I think PB is a top 25 course on any list and I also think PD is vastly underrated.  How it all shakes out inbetween I don't care.  

In closing unfortunately I've seen no sun lately and the heat is working double time!! I hate NY winters    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

Are you viewing the play of # 2 from the back, back tee ?

The one in FRONT of the 1st green ?

You could play # 6 a thousand times, the blind nature, risk-reward associated with positioning your second shot for the ideal approach into the green remains a great challenge, and that is largely dependent upon the placement of your drive.

Strategy and options abound.

With respect to # 18, forget about the name of the hazard to the left of the hole, the fact is that a penal hazard borders the entire left side of the hole, coming into play on every shot.  And, lest you get too conservative an even more unpleasant fate awaits you on the right.

You make the hole sound like a pushover, a dead cinch par or birdie.

I'd like to stand on that tee 24/7/365 and bet you and the golfer about to tee off on their score relative to par.

Jason,

I'll attribute your delusional evaluation to the cold, lack of sunshne, wind and snow.

Take two aspirin and call me in the spring.

[Lou_Duran]

Pat,

Beginning on #2 and ending on #8, I played the far back tees a couple of steps from the very tips.  I don't remember precisely the position of the back tee on #2 other than it was as far back as it could be played.  I played an indifferent drive down the right side, layed-up close inside a SW shot, and made an easy par.

I happen to believe that nearly all holes have strategic elements, so looking at 2 primarily, but also 18 and 6, it is a matter of degree.  In my current form, I would not bet anyone that any hole is easy, certainly not #18 or #6 for that matter.

BTW, do you see #18 as more strategic than penal?  It seems to me that off the tee the conservative thinking is don't hit it left or long right (OB).  On the second shot, it is typically, don't hit it left.  On the third, it is hit it solid and left center.  Even for the pros, except for Dailey and Michelson, how often do they flirt with the far left side to have the angle for a second shot to the green?  Aren't the majority of shots hit toward the trees on the right, followed by a long to mid iron to the middle left?  On a trully strategic hole, wouldn't you expect many different ways to play the hole?

[Jason Blasberg]

Jason,

I'll attribute your delusional evaluation to the cold, lack of sunshne, wind and snow.

Take two aspirin and call me in the spring.

Pat:

I'm impressed, excellent use of humor to avoid the merits of the discussion.  

In discussions past you've had much more of a buzz saw approach

Spring can't come soon enough!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've only read the most recent 2 pages of posts, but I must
say I'm a big fan of #6, one of my two favorite holes on the
course and would easily make my list of all-time fave 18
holes.  Here are some pics of #6:



A preview of the hill the wonderfully blind 2nd shot must traverse:


Where do you aim?


and my favorite, taken from the 15th tee:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

I think Scott's terrific pictures provide irrefutable testimony to and support of my points.

View them closely and then let me know what you think.

Your cabin fever just might be breaking.

Scott,

Great pictures.

I agree, I think # 6 is a fabulous par 5.

What more do people want ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott:

Great pictures - best I've seen of a great golf hole, the par five #6.

Patrick:

What more do people want?  A great hole prior to this one, the one that was intended all along.  Thank god we finally get this.

 

[Rick Shefchik]

I've found # 2, # 6 and # 18 to all be terrific par 5's.

I can't understand the reluctance for people to give them their due.

Is it jealousy, bias, ignorance or other non-golf related factors ?

I'm truely puzzled.

Patrick -- I think it's the beautiful/smart woman syndrome. Some people simply can't accept the idea that a drop-dead gorgeous woman can be highly intelligent, too. If she's praised her for her intellect, they conclude the assessment is based in large part on her looks.

[A_Clay_Man]

the one that was intended all along.  

Huck,

This is such bullshit I cannot comprehend how much. The same hole? Are you delusional?   .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

I echoed your words earlier, and on another thread as well,
I also used the term delusional.

Had the original 5th hole been constructed as the current hole is, there's no doubt that the 6th hole would be substantively different, and that the current 5th hole was never conceived of when the original course was routed.

I think Huckaby's suffering from these delusions as a result of breathing too much salt air and water as he sits by the 8th tee, contemplating the setting and all of those who have walked and meditated there before him.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, I dont think Jack built the same hole that either Neville, or Egan, would've.

[redanman]

Had the original 5th hole been constructed as the current hole is,
 there's no doubt that the 6th hole would be substantively
 different, and that the current 5th hole was never conceived of
 when the original course was routed.

Had all the land been available, perhaps #4 might have dog-legged(or elbowed?)
more left-to-right to be a longer hole, finish tight
to the water  followed by a par 3 fifth going uphill and inland,
perhaps even to the original #5 greensite making an easier
 transition to the current 6th?

I liked the old #5 a lot.

Nice pictures of six, Scott.  One of the best holes not usually
 mentioned as "best" on this wonderful top 25 golf course.

[A_Clay_Man]

After careful thought I strongly disagree with another one of Huck's justifications.
 Prior to the Baranca being cleared and the bridge built,
there was never any "pull" to follow the so called coast.
Not for me anyway.

And what about that Bridge?
It likely never would've been built,
 back in the day.
Which is a total assumption on my part,
based on there being no other bridge like
 additions to the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

You bring up a good point, had the land been available # 4 might have been a totally different hole, perhaps a long par 4 along the coast, which in turn could have changed every hole that followed.  So, it's impossible to surmise what the golf course would have looked like, from the 4th tee on.

[Lou_Duran]

"Nice pictures of six, Scott.  One of the best holes not usually
mentioned as "best" on this wonderful top 25 golf course." redanman.

I mostly agree with this statement.  Have they resolved the drainage problem in the driving area of #6?  I would probably have a higher opinion of the hole if getting home in two was a more frequent option.  Would a bunker at 100 to 70 yards out on the left elbow make the second shot requirement more demanding as well as interesting?

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

Doesn't the wind up on the bluff provide sufficient challenge ?

Why insert additional blind bunkers on a wind swept site ?

[Lou_Duran]

Pat,

To bring the right side more into play, just like the tree short of the green to the right on 18 encourages a shot to the left which challenges the bunker and ocean.

I will admit, the more we discuss PB and #6 in particular, the more appreciation I have for both.  PB has a lot of subtleties which perhaps are overlooked with the overload from the incomparable setting and surroundings.

Perhaps PB is one of those courses which needs to be played multiple times so as not to be overpowered by the aesthetics, allowing one to focus more on the architecture.  It sure would be terrifying but fun to play it in firm, fast, and medium-windy conditions at its full length.

[Dan King]

Thanks to Scott for posting the pics of six. If you look at the last pic, where the caddy is standing is about where you come out from the new fifth hole, and then you walk up that hill to get to the tee. That is the hike that I think really throws off the flow of the course and Tom Huckaby says doesn’t.

I’ve also never seen Velcro hill (the hill going up toward the sixth green) cut like that to fairway height. When I played there the week after the 1990 Open, they could have gotten hundreds of bushels of hay off that hill.

The other issue that pic shows is had five always hugs the cliff, and the sixth had been a par-4, with the tee down by where that caddie is standing, you wouldn’t get that view of Carmel Bay from that hole. You’d get it eventually when you get to the green, but you’d get no view from the tee.

Dan King

Bumpy greens don’t bother me anymore, since I’ve become an analyst. I don’t see the problem.
 --Dave Feherty at Pebble Beach

[ForkaB]

I'm feeling contgrary today......

Let's stop this love fest about the 6th at Pebble Beach.  IN my mind it is just barely in the top 4 of par-5's at its own course!

Bomb a drive from an elevated tee to a wide fairway that only punishes the slice and the duck hook, then hit the ball up the hill to a very average green.  Take a look at the recently posted pictures of 5 and 17 at Prestwick if you want to see what a blind shot green ought to look like.  All that being said, I still think Pebble is underrated--particularly on this site (I guess I'm not the only one here who can be occasionally sceptical....).  If you put #6 in the bottom quartile of holes on the course, you can see how good the rest of it might be!

Rich

PS--Pat Mucci, I played the course 25-30 times in the 70's-80s (from ALL the tees, just to save you some green ink) and never experienced any serious wind up on that point.  Maybe it's because I played it in high season and not in the winter when all the tourists come on discount packages....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

You are aware that TEPaul grew up on and played golf courses hundreds of times and never noticed the architectural merit of many holes until I pointed it out to him.

# 6 is a terrific par 5.

You drive from an elevated tee, down to a sloping fairway with trouble left and right.  The longer you drive, the more abruptly you must get your second shot airborne.

The blind, skyline nature of the second shot is fabulous, and unsettling to most golfers.  Mis-hits are penalized, especially bladed or peeking type shots.  As to the last 80 yards, are there many difficult shots to any par 5 from 80 yards ?

I think you under rate # 6.

While you may be comfortable with the hole due to repeat play, most are intimidated by it from the tee to the green.