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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2005, 02:31:31 PM »
Lou.

You wrote:

"From the backs, old 5 was under 170 yards, heading away from the bay.  The hole was indeed difficult, perhaps exacting might be a better way to describe it.  Wind was less of a factor, and, if memory serves, probably tended to shorten the hole."

Now I don't know if you were playing a temporary tee, but I cannot remember the hole playing at less than 170 yards. I am somewhat puzzled by your comment that it's uphill, but plays shorter. Are we defying Newton here?

Lou I bow to your playing skills but sometimes you sound as contrarian as Goodale. You say that PB is vastly over-rated, compared to what?






A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2005, 02:48:32 PM »

I am not sure that new 5 is an easier hole being 20 yards longer and more exposed to the elements.


  New 5 is better, without question.  



Lou, If they build a tee that no one can use, unless you're playing in the at&t or the U.s Open, is it really the hole in question? The hole has difficulty playing 150yds. from the back of the forward teeing ground. The only teeing ground us mortals can use. And, on that second point, I'd say that seven pages of questioning is taking place.

Tom, Blame the N on my new acer laptop. The keys stick horribly. Next time ou are near the Bay 101 could go into Acer and bitch at them for me?

« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 02:50:51 PM by Adam Clayman »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #152 on: December 08, 2005, 02:54:39 PM »
The 5th hole present tough choices to me. I loved the old hole visually and the green complex. I actually think the new hole might be a better competition hole for this golf course. The cross winds to a somewhat narrow small green create some very interesting shots to a well designed hole. I loved the blindness of the old hole and the excitement of discovering my shot location when the pin was behind the front right trap. The old green had so many fun short game shots as well.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2005, 04:27:02 PM »
Bob,

Nah, I am not being contrarian like Rich.  As a product of public and state schools, I just don't possess the gravitas or wit of the somewhat confused Scot via Palo Alto and Cambridge.

I recall "old" #5 as being only slightly uphill.  With a favoring wind, it seems like it would have normally played shorter than the difference in yardage given the orientation of the new hole being affected more by quartering winds.


I played PBGL early in the morning of 5/28/83.  According to my card, from the championship tee, #5 played 166 yards (156 from the regulars).  I hit a 6 iron just long and left, and it took me three strokes from there to get it in the hole.

Starting on #2, I played two steps up from the back tips.  This came to an end after my tee shot on the 8th hole when the marshall threatened to kick me off the course if I didn't play the regular tees.  By that time, we were at least two holes ahead of the next group and had the course completely open (we were a threesome and the second group off behind a twosome).  At that time I could play a little bit and begged to play the backs while offering to play from the the regular tees on the par threes where I might actually disturb the teeing area.  Nothing could dissuade this marshall and he followed us with binoculars for most of the rest of the morning (we were done by 10:30).

It is possible that the negative experience that day might have some bearing on my less than reverent attitude about the course.  But even before the marshall started hasseling me (it actually began after my tee shot on #6), I just wasn't overly impressed with the course up to that point.

PB has a mix of world-class, excellent, and average holes.  8, 9, 10, 14, 16, and 17 from the old back tees (behind the road) are fantastic.  18 is an exciting finishing hole, probably more so today because going for it on the second shot is now possible for numerous players.

In my opinion, the weaker holes like 1, 2, 7 (blasphemy), 13, and 15 dilute the course to a considerable extent.  One or two connector holes wouldn't detract all that much, but four or five is another matter.

Compared to what?  How about CPC, Sand Hills, and Shinny for a start?  I am not all that well-travelled, but I could probably come up with another ten or so.

Adam,

In my opinion, a course should be evaluated from its tournament tees.  If the 186 yard tee can't be normally used, that was probably also the case of the 166 yard tee on the "old" 5.

   

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2005, 04:55:29 PM »
Quote
If the 186 yard tee can't be normally used, that was probably also the case of the 166 yard tee on the "old" 5.
Was no such thang.

Are you making up the rest of this suff too? What year did you play there? Marshals threatening, is not their style.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2005, 06:08:14 PM »
Adam,

Are you calling me a liar?  Them's fighting words!

The year was 1983.  I have the scorecard with the yardages and a few notes.  If you don't wish to believe me, I'll shoot a digital picture of it and email it to you.  For doubting me, it will cost you a beer next time we're at the same place.

As to the marshalls and pro shop staff, they didn't have a great reputation for hospitality back then.  The golf course was in so-so shape and lived largely on its laurels.  My two golfing companions, both strangers to me and to each other, could not believe the treatment from the marshall.  On the other hand, they were treated only marginally better from the time they checked in.

The new group seems to be doing much better with their guests than the old.  Of course, a day and a night at PB now costs upward $1,200, not a small sum for us mere peasants.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2005, 09:32:02 PM »
Lou, I'll buy you the beer, but I never meant to insinuate you were lying. That's why I asked when you played. 83' was PH. (Pre Harper) so I do believe you.

I heard lots of stories through the years about how things used to be. One of them was about how the course had been beaten-up by cart traffc. Now that they have restricted their use, the conditions are supposedly vastly superior. I didnt bother responding to Matt Ward's recent query on the subject, especially after the report from the digest summit on how wide a range, different people think.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2005, 09:51:48 PM »
I did not play Pebble a few weekes ago but did walk 7 or 8 holes. The condition was great. The greens had been punched a week earlier so I did not want to play.

ForkaB

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2005, 03:20:17 AM »
sometimes you sound as contrarian as Goodale.

Bob

History will show that I was the first person to "utter" the word "Nchanga" on this website, and that everything TE Paul knows about "ideal meaintenance meld" he learned from me.  There is a very fine line between being a contrarian and a being a visionary, and having crossed it often (usually in the proper direction) it is a line which is very familiar to me.

Your obedient servant

Rich

Jason Blasberg

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #159 on: December 09, 2005, 03:37:31 AM »
For someone who's never played Pacific Dunes . . . Pebble Beach is an incredible course . . . but once you play a truly great American public links with no gaudy mansions or elephant statues . . . Pebble don't stand a chance even if you host another 20 US Opens there.  

Is it still an excellent course in its own right?  Yes, b/c of its world class holes but there are many better 18 hole courses out there (Prairie Dunes for one) and I think some folks are starting to realize that Pebble shouldn't get a free pass for its weak holes and its less than understated environs.  


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #160 on: December 09, 2005, 07:33:09 AM »
Jason,

While I like Prairie Dunes a great deal, Pebble Beach remains a wonderful and strong golf course.

Could you cite for me those holes at Pebble that you feel are weak ?

Do you define "weak" as easy, or lacking architectural merit ?

What holes do you find "weak" at Prairie Dunes ?

Jason Blasberg

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #161 on: December 09, 2005, 10:14:47 AM »
Pat:

Part of the reason that I have a very high opinion of PD is because I very much enjoy the Press holes (3-5; 11-16) and don't find them at all inferior to the original nine, in fact my favorite stretch of holes is the swing 11-16 and back on the 13th tee I feel like I could be in Oz, literally for me it's other worldly.  In short, I don't believe there is a weak hole at PD.

The definition of weak hole is a bit like the old line about pornography, "I'm not sure but I know it when I see it."

Not to be flippant about it at all but I think a weak element or hole can vary greatly from hole to hole and course to course.  One consistant weakness that I find on many courses and certainly some at Pebble is when the line of play either off the tee or into the green is dictated to the player.  

I don't want to be told, hit it here or hit it anywhere but here . . .  

Take the first tee shot at PD, you can hit down the left or the right, but if you go left go far enough to make it to the fairway and far enough to clear the mounding down the inside of the dogleg so you can see the green and that requires a very bold line challenging the fescue or you can hit it right, but be sure your distance control is on because too long is in the bunkers and if you bail out short right you've got a million miles for your second (btw, C&C's appreciation for PD hits you immediately at Cuscowilla as the tee shot on number 1 there has a very similar feeling and right to left risk reward element).  

I find elements of that risk reward on every tee shot at PD, it's on 1, 2, 5 (although less so b/c it's straight, the bolder you hug the inside of the hole the better and shorter the approach), 6, 7, 8, 9 (similar to 5), 11, 12 (which I love and some people hate b/c of the trees, I've hit driver a little off line and had to bump and run under the limbs thinking I hit a great shot only for it to roll entirely through the green) 13, 14, 16, 17 (again similar to 5 and 9 in being fairly straight) and 18, perhaps my favorite and potentially disasterous on the course as the ball can roll forever right to left with any kind of hook and the high stuff eats balls up down the right and left side but you can hit anything from 5 iron to driver if it's down wind).        

As for Pebble's weak holes, I would say 1, 2, 11, 12, 14, and 15 are weak.  

1) Weak b/c it requires little thought off the tee, beside don't hit it right and don't screw up in front of all these people;

2) Weak because again, there is little strategy off the tee besides hitting it straight and unless you're going for it in two it's a layup and a wedge over the baranca (note, for me # 3 is the first real interesting tee shot, with several options and risk reward element);

11) Weak off the tee after you've played it once and the blind tee shot effect fades, not a very interesting second IMO and the housing starts to overwhelm things there, (btw, the best views on number 11 are all backwards which is not a weakness);

12) Very ordinary like many other par threes I've played, I think I hit the same club three days in a row;

14) I really just don't like 14 even though the tee shot sets up for a power fade which I like to hit, I find the green completely out of balance with the rest of the hole, it's too undulated and the transitions between segments is too severe;

15) The tee shot is very cramped and once you get to the fairway there's little interest in terms of fairway bunkering and I yawned on the approach too, althought there is some nice titlt to the green I just find the approach there uninspired;

So for me, one is too many weak holes for PB to be truly a world class tract (by my count there are 6).  BTW, my thoughts of Pebble have grown more critical as I played what I consider truly world class courses, e.g. Shinnecock, Prairie Dunes, Pacific Dunes.  I'm imagine that I may grow even more critical of Pebble once I get across the Pond and play some real links golf ;D ;D

Jason

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #162 on: December 09, 2005, 10:22:18 AM »
Wow, I can't believe you think 14 is weak! It is one of my favorite par 5s. If more par 5s had greens that were so "out of balance", then they might actually be par 5s and not simply long par 4s.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #163 on: December 09, 2005, 11:01:10 AM »
14?
I can't believe he finds 11 weak.  That is one of the world's great greens, with a very difficult approach a la #10 Riviera.

I personally don't find any of the others he lists to be weak either, but at least I can understand the rationale there.  11 and 14 I just plain can't understand.

And Jason, while I have never played Prairie Dunes, well... I first played Pebble in the mid-70s.  Since that time I've played quite a few American greats, and basically every great links course in the UK one would care to name.

If anything my appreciation for Pebble is stronger than it's ever been.

And I loved Cuscowilla too.
 ;)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 11:01:52 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #164 on: December 09, 2005, 11:13:57 AM »
"Are you calling me a liar?  Them's fighting words!"

Adam,

Certainly you know I wrote this in jest.  I'd be crazy to challenge a brute like you to a fist fight!  Nevertheless, I'll take that beer.

Pat,

This Jason Blasberg is quite a sharp guy.  Listen to him.  He knows.

PBGL is not a mediocre course.  In my opinion, it is just not one of the top three or four best courses in the U.S. for reasons cited.  I would personally rather play CPC two or three+ times for every round at PB, even if they were priced at parity.  Of course, not having ready access to either, I guess this is moot.

I do disagree with Mr. Blasberg re: #14.  It is a bit awkward on nearly every shot, but it is demanding throughout, fairly unique, and it has a great green complex for that type of hole.

Most people rightfully remember Watson's chip-in on #17 to win the US Open.  The critical shot, I thought, was the long putt from the front right on #14 green he sunk.  The commentator had just noted how difficult it was just to get it down in two, and I said outloud, watch him make it.  Watson was a phenominal putter and short game player.



Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2005, 11:18:35 AM »
Jason,

If Pebble Beach had as many weak holes as you claim, it wouldn't make the top 200, let alone the top 10.

Let's compare the two courses in general

Par 3's

Do you really believe that PD's par 3's are in the same league with PB's ?

Par 5's

PD only has two, PB four.

Do you really feel that # 7 and # 17 compare more favorably then # 2, # 6, # 14 and # 18 ?

Par 4's

Would you say that # 8 is PD's best ?

How do you feel about # 3, # 4, # 8, # 9, # 10 at PB ?

Can you name any par 4's at PD that match the above Par 4's at PB ?

Prairie Dunes is certainly a wonderful golf course, but, you've been out in the sun too long, or deprived of food, water and sleep if you think it's superior to Pebble Beach.  ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2005, 11:19:37 AM »
Lou - so you'd say it works as #5 in the US?

I can certainly live with that.

shivas:  re your post, couldn't one say the same thing about Augusta?

I have a feeling that each does benefit from television, but only fails expectations in person for the real curmudgeons like those who populate this forum.

 ;)

I also hope to the golf gods that Mr. Huntley sees what you just called Pebble.

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 11:20:35 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2005, 11:26:03 AM »
Lou Duran,

The moment anyone focuses on collateral issues instead of the architecture and play of the golf course it's an admission that they can't support their position.

Forget about greens fees, they're irrelevant.
Forget about bag drops, clubhouses, staff and food.
That's all pet peeves and/or biases and are attempts to divert your focus from the REAL subject, THE GOLF COURSE.

Just examine the golf course, architecturally and from the perspective of playability.

Pebble Beach is a superb golf course, with or without the new 5th hole.

All of the other non-golf architecture and playability criticisms are off topic.

Lou,
See, See the Ball, Be, Be the ball.
Stay, stay on the ball ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2005, 11:29:15 AM »
Is there any course in the world that has benefitted more from hosting a tour event on television than Pebble Beach?

YES

Valhalla.
[/color]

Imagine a world where Pebble doesn't hold the clambake on TV.  Is Pebble just another nice resort course, rather than the pantheon of golf that it is in the minds of most?

Your classification of Pebble Beach as "just another nice resort course" speaks volumes to your assessment and lack of architectural appreciation of Pebble Beach.

It was and remains a world class golf course irrespective of the collateral issues.
[/color]

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2005, 11:29:30 AM »
Patrick:

While I concur with you 100% on your assessment of Pebble Beach, you are sadly, sadly wrong about the following:


The moment anyone focuses on collateral issues instead of the architecture and play of the golf course it's an admission that they can't support their position.

There is SO much more to golf, and golf courses, than architecture and play.  Oh those are the two main issues, the crux of the whole matter, for sure.  But if you feel that's all there is, well I feel sorry for you.  I thought you had a soul.

Please set my mind at ease.  You don't take it as far as this seems, do you?

TH

ps - this to me is such an interesting take on things, it deserves its own Topic.  Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 11:37:05 AM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2005, 11:38:48 AM »
The primary benefit to having Pebble on TV is that those of us who couldn't afford to play it regularly get to see it regularly. I don't think that's a bad thing. There are probably other courses that are more undeservedly propped up by TV, especially due to their pristine conditions (and no, I don't mean Augusta).

It's a special place. The only reason some of the holes might seem weak is that some of the others are so unbelievably spectacular that they suffer by comparison.

There are few better ways to spend a day anywhere. It's damn expensive (almost makes me wish I was still a scumbag investment banker :)) but it's Pebble, it's real, and it's spectacular.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2005, 11:40:46 AM »
P.S. Having said all that, Pebble is still no Oakmont. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2005, 11:45:38 AM »
Patrick:

While I concur with you 100% on your assessment of Pebble Beach, you are sadly, sadly wrong about the following:


The moment anyone focuses on collateral issues instead of the architecture and play of the golf course it's an admission that they can't support their position.

There is SO much more to golf,
Agreed, but we're not discussing "GOLF"
[/color]

and golf courses, than architecture and play.  
NO, when you're discussing golf courses, you're discussing arcgutecture and playability, not the bag drop, how the attendent shines your shoes, how much seasoning they put in your hamburger or the lack of a smile on a staff member's face, because all of those things can and do change, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and annually, while the golf course remains essentially static.
[/color]


Oh those are the two main issues, the crux of the whole matter, for sure.  

And that's where the discussion should be focused.
Not on collateral, non-architectural or playability issues.
[/color]

But if you feel that's all there is, well I feel sorry for you.  I thought you had a soul.

Please set my mind at ease.  You don't take it as far as this seems, do you?

I'll let you decide. ;D
[/color]

« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 11:46:05 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2005, 11:45:42 AM »
George:

WHEW!  I thought you were slipping there for a second.

But well said re Pebble.  And as for that toney 'Burgh course, well... God I hope to understand this better someday... because I know you guys must be right to some extent, I just can't "feel it", you know?

TH

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2005, 11:52:50 AM »
Tom,

I doubt that it is my #5, only that I could better understand others believing that it is.

Pat,

We agree, PB is a superb course.  I happen to believe that its popularity and highest regard are underserved purely from an architectural standpoint.

BTW, do you really think #2, #6, and #18 are great par 5s?  I look at #2 merely as a glorified long par 4 to get you out into the golf course.  #6 can be easily played with a 3-wood to the wide fairway, a mid-to long iron anywhere left of center, and a wedge in.  #18 gets much of its glory from the Pacific, and some silly trees which have to be babied and replanted in order to challenge another 3-wood, mid to long iron, and wedge.

Do you think that #7 is a world class par three?  In my modest opinion, it can't hold CPC's #15 jock.  I think #5 is now the best three on the course, followed closely by #12.  Reintroducing the back tee on 17 would make it the best of the bunch, and a better finishing stretch.

I do very much like #8, 9, 10, and 16, all exceptional great par fours.  I also like #4 for the second shot, and #11 for being a bit awkward, but a nice change of pace.

BTW, except for playability, I agree that the other things should not matter.  Unfortunately, I think that they do creep into our conciousness, both positively and negatively, and can perhaps impair our judgement.  I confessed that the treatment I received there when I played the course may have had an impact on how I perceived it.  Subsequent trips, albeit without playing PB but spending quite a bit of time there, did reveal great progress in terms of hospitality, course conditions, and presentation.  I have not seen anything that would change my mind about the architectural merits of the course.