Pebble Beach Golf Links

[Glen Rapoport]

What are your opinions of where Pebble Beach should be on anyone's list these days?  Having just played it again, I wonder why it is held in such high esteem by all of the panels when holes 1-5 and 11-14 are not that outstanding.  

[Evan_Green]

Glen

One could make a very good argument that any one of #4, #5 or #14 would each be the best hole on an aweful lot of very good golf courses.

Please explain what you think isn't outstanding about these 3 holes.

[Matthew Schulte]

I personally also like the third hole, which one Tiger Woods found significant trouble with during one round of the 2000 Open.  It offers a version of a "Cape" type tee shot and a very narrow target of a green.  Many are critical of the location of the road and buildings hard behind the green.  Aesthetically I suppose that wouldn't be our first choice but I have "heard" roads beside greens can make good/interesting hazards.  

[Bill_McBride]

The ongoing "problem" with Pebble Beach is that it has some authentically world class holes - say #7-10 and #17-18 - that somehow make some merely outstanding holes appear to be pedestrian by comparison.

We should all have such a "problem!"  

[Ted Kramer]

It always surprises me when people leave #6 off of their "great holes at Pebble" list.

-Ted

[Sean Leary]

ditto for 16...  I also think 3 and 4 are vastly underrated.

[cary lichtenstein]

Ted:

Why is 6 a great hole at Pebble? I always thought the 2nd and 3rd shots were nothing special, but I'm not long enough to reach the green in 2, so it was always an easy par 5 for me.

Cary

[Bob_Huntley]

Glen,

What tees were you playing?

Bob

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

Why is 6 a great hole at Pebble? I always thought the 2nd and 3rd shots were nothing special, but I'm not long enough to reach the green in 2, so it was always an easy par 5 for me.

Cary

I tend to like uphill holes to begin with.
#6 really started to give me a sense of the incredible setting.
That climb up the fairway was very exciting.
I played my 2nd shot up the left side to avoid that big tree and the cliff like edge on the right. I certainly thought about ripping my 2nd as far as I could, but the uphill nature of the hole made me a little unsure of myself. I laid my 2nd shot up and had about 100 yards into that green. I remember a distinct sense of trouble long with that approach and was pleased with my ball landing on the front portion of that green.

I think #6 is a very good par5 in an all world setting which in mind makes it a great golf hole.

-Ted

[A_Clay_Man]

Glen-How would you say you felt about the golf course as a whole? Not the parts that make it up.

I'd speculate those that only rate courses hole by hole, tend to miss-out on key intangibles, like flow.

[Dan King]

Speaking of flow, I think the sixth hole worked better with the old No. 5 hole. I loved coming around that corner after playing five, and seeing six laid out in front of me. Now, leaving five, you have to backtrack to the sixth tee, and you don't get the impact of coming around the corner.

Dan King

Cartpaths are a blight on any landscape. At Pebble Beach, they're a nose ring on the Mona Lisa. You could also say that a daylong, $350 round at Pebble is one of the great rip-offs of our time, and the only way to play the course is first off at someone else's expense.
 --Jarry Tarde

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Glen, Pebble Beach is one the greatest courses in the world. I think 11, 12, 13 and 14 are very good to great holes. 1 is not a bad opening hole at all. It is a sneaky 1/2 club up hill. 3 is good and 4 is a great hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dan- There is no doubt in my mind, that you are correct. The flowus is terribly interuptus, now. I hope Chuck Schwab appreciates the hidden costs to his new house.

It really is another example of how, architecurally, those with their hand on the helm, have no clue.

I'd be willing to wager if they listened to Ran's suggestions and went back to a more rugged sandy dunesy look, they wouldn't know what to do with all the EXTRA money.

[JNC Lyon]

Jack Nicklaus loved the Second Hole at Pebble, calling it a great short five.  Thoughts?

[Rick Shefchik]

I'll stick up for 11 and 13, while dropping 15 from the list of Pebble's excellent holes.

I haven't played 11 under firm and fast (read "U.S. Open") conditions, but even in softer conditions the 11th green is one of the toughest targets and trickiest putting surfaces on the course.

Number 13 has well-placed fairway bunkers that require a long, accurate drive to set up the proper angle of approach to a well-conceived green with a number of tough hole locations -- particularly front right. It's also one of the few holes on the course that seems to fit the "Links" in the course's name.

I do think 15, at least as it played when I was there in 2003, was one of the only weak holes on the course.

[Rick Shefchik]

The flowus is terribly interuptus, now. I hope Chuck Schwab appreciates the hidden costs to his new house.

Not having played the old #5, was the flow really so fabulous that  it trumped playing the current #5 along the ocean? I didn't mind taking a left turn coming off the fifth green. The sixth hole is still a n inspiring sight -- and I have to believe #5 is a better -- or at least far more scenic -- hole now.

[Dennis_Harwood]

What are your opinions of where Pebble Beach should be on anyone's list these days?  Having just played it again, I wonder why it is held in such high esteem by all of the panels when holes 1-5 and 11-14 are not that outstanding.  

When I first played the course over 50 years ago I thought it was the best course I had ever played-- I have subsequently played hundreds of courses including those on all the "top" lists and those listed here as everyones favorites--

I still think it is the finest (provided you can choose your tee off time to avoid the 6 hour round)--

I have never walked off the 18th green (or finished playing the 8th hole) without looking back and saying  "Wow!"

Obviously, you have a different opinion.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I certainly wouldn't disagree that the first few at Pebble are less that stunning.  #6, however, was stunning simply because, I was wasn't aware of the scale of it.  

Glen, although some of the holes you mention may be average, I wouldn't agree that 14 is average.  Unreachable for most, the green represents one of the most difficult targets in golf.  The surrounding areas present a myriad of challenges for salvaging pars.  

Go ahead add #15 and 16 to the lists of average holes, but I simply think the remainder of the challenge makes Pebble top 10 in anyones book.

[Peter Galea]

What about the putting? When the greens are really rolling, you better not be staring out over Carmel Bay or gazing at the treetops of the Monterey cypress. It will take all your attention, concentration and immagination to negoitiate those tiny but remarkable greens. And let's not forget the chipping and pitching around them.

You guys must be alot better golfers than me to think that any of Pebble Beach's holes are bland, I mean, you must position your tee shot correctly to have a a real chance of getting to those greens. And...you must have some real alien game improvement irons to think that the second shots are pedestrian. They are some of the toughest targets I've ever seen, even from the center of the fairway. Then, I'm mentally exhausted just thinking about this, try to get to the right part of the green to have a good putt at birdie.

Maybe the pros and top amateurs can go low at Pebble, but I can't remember any mere mortal bragging that they were under par at PBGL.

All that, not even considering the wind, weather, being at sea level, and  your wife dropping a couple grand on jewelry and trinkets in Carmel while you're out scrambling for par.

BTW: I LOVED the old 5th hole and hate walking back to get to a tee for the next hole.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete,

You and I are brothers at heart.

The carping of the easiness of some of the holes at Pebble Beach is almost laughable. I first played Pebble in 1963 after arriving in America. I was a solid two at the time and could go low when the the psyche allowed.  I had played around the world and was blown away by the beauty and demands of the course. After forty odd years of playing and competing in various tournaments there, I still think it is one of our great tests.

When I hear some of the critics complaining of the the nothingness of this hole or that, I am reminded of Art Bell, pro-emeritus of Pebble, who once said that he would take any bet from an amateur who could nominate a score commensurate with his handicap, that would come anywhere close to his target.

Play Pebble on a calm California sunny day and then when the  breeze comes up is the difference between sparring with Don Knotts and Mike Tyson.

By the way I like your Hardy inspired one plane swing.

Bob

[Wayne Freeman]

  Bob-  I'm with you.  I am sick and tired of people panning P.B. and complaining about one thing or another.  Truly one of the great joys in golf to experience, it starts peacefully enough, slowly, and builds to an initial great crescendo as the ocean beckons- how much better can anything be to leave the green and view at 6 and walk to the 7th tee.  The second shot on 8-  perhaps the greatest one in all of golf and then the incredible ocean holes that follow. Turning back, the holes may not be all blowout types, but I think they are solid nevertheless.  And again the anticipation of reaching the finish is almost unmatched.  !8 is surely one of the greatest finishing holes with a "wow" factor that just makes you appreciate how fortunate you are to be a part of the incredible beauty that surrounds you.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Not having played the old #5, was the flow really so fabulous that  it trumped playing the current #5 along the ocean? I didn't mind taking a left turn coming off the fifth green. The sixth hole is still a n inspiring sight -- and I have to believe #5 is a better -- or at least far more scenic -- hole now.

Rick- In my best attempt to be impartial, I'd say the scenic aspect of the new fifth, does not trump the old flow.
First of all, when you're approaching, (and on) the 4th green, you are treated to this same scenery. So you didn't mss it.

As for the playing of the hole, the old hole was much more demanding, in all aspects.

The old flow was more special because, as the golfer turned the corner, after getting a drink from the old water cooler, not only did the hole open up, but the entirety of what the golfer was about to emabark on, was revealed. The dramatic pause going up the hill really set-up that specialness. Sort of like the suspension of disbelief in a film.

Also, I must confess that my playing abilities have had no effect on my opinion.  I once was 2 under going into that old fifth, and left two over. Yep a seven. A quad. A totally depressing happenstance which was quickly over-turned wth another birdie on 6  

[mike_malone]

 Did anyone see Matt Gogel playing it on The Golf Channel ? He made many references to the sidehill lies. It gave me a new apppreciation for something that does  not come across well on TV.

[Bob_Huntley]

Not having played the old #5, was the flow really so fabulous that  it trumped playing the current #5 along the ocean? I didn't mind taking a left turn coming off the fifth green. The sixth hole is still a n inspiring sight -- and I have to believe #5 is a better -- or at least far more scenic -- hole now.

Rick- In my best attempt to be impartial, I'd say the scenic aspect of the new fifth, does not trump the old flow.
First of all, when you're approaching, (and on) the 4th green, you are treated to this same scenery. So you didn't mss it.

As for the playing of the hole, the old hole was much more demanding, in all aspects.

The old flow was more special because, as the golfer turned the corner, after getting a drink from the old water cooler, not only did the hole open up, but the entirety of what the golfer was about to emabark on, was revealed. The dramatic pause going up the hill really set-up that specialness. Sort of like the suspension of disbelief in a film.

Adam,

Superbly put, there was a bit of mystery about going up the narrow walk and awaiting the next vista, almost like driving down the enfilade of trees at "Manderly."

Bob

[A_Clay_Man]

Mayday, Which hole are you referring to?

Oh yes, I'll say this again about the 15th. It's mundacity was PERFECT.

After the long 14th, a breather is indeed needed. Recent changes to the LZ on that hole illustrate just how out of touch the powers are.