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John Kavanaugh

Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« on: December 02, 2005, 09:48:33 AM »
I have never felt that I need to play a course to have a valid opinion that would be worthy of sharing with my friends.  As an obvious example I don't need to play the 12th at Augusta to understand the subtle nuances of the shot.  I can sit here right now and imagine either coming out of the shot and dumping it short right in the water or over compensating and hitting it long left...I could hit the shot a million times and not know any more or less about the architecture than I know now.

I know the tree removal at Oakmont opened up the course and made it a course I enjoy more without ever having seen it before or after..

As a more obscure example...The 18th at The Old Course is a more interesting finisher than the 18th at Sebonack considering they both seem to be cut off the easy finish model..

Why aren't these opinions valid and what others might you have...the more obscure the better..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 10:02:08 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 25
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2005, 10:04:09 AM »
John:  But what if I told you that I have played the 12th at Augusta National several times, and when I came over the top and pulled my approach it didn't wind up in too bad a spot, and I usually got up and down for par because the green is so flat?  Wouldn't that be a more informed opinion than your own?

I do agree with your general point, that it's possible to make a good observation about a hole without actually having played it.  But it's also more possible that you are wrong that way.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2005, 10:08:24 AM »
John:  But what if I told you that I have played the 12th at Augusta National several times, and when I came over the top and pulled my approach it didn't wind up in too bad a spot, and I usually got up and down for par because the green is so flat?  


I wouldn't believe you for one thing..and obviously the pull long is better than in the water.  That is why I hit that type of shot so often.  You have been far too busy the last couple of years to get up and down from long left to the Sunday pin..

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2005, 10:13:58 AM »
The 12th at Augusta, as arguably the best-known par 3 in the world (with the likely exception of 17 at Sawgrass) is probably not a fair example.  Likewise, tree removal on ANY course would likely make the course more enjoyable; that's not GCA, per se.

In general, I'd think you would have to see the course in person, or rely on the judgement of someone you really, really trust as an evaluator to accurately talk about micro-features of the course on specific holes.  Too much is lost, especially elevation, in pictures.  That said, I'd hate to think that I can't appreciate the uniqueness and greatness of Pine Valley as a total golf course, for instance, from the pictures I've seen and the discussions I've read, though I have never been there and likely won't ever be.  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2005, 10:14:05 AM »
John,
Opinions of holes/courses that one has not seen in person or played can still be valid and useful to hear.  However, there is no substitute for seeing or playing a hole or course in person to truly appreciate it.  Unless you've walked up the 18th fairway or down the 10th at Augusta, you can't appreciate its severity.  Until you've seen Old Head in person, you might think it's an 11 from the photos.  Unless you walk the grounds (ideally with a caddie and clubs in hand) at Pinehurst #2, you can't get a true feel for the complexity of that design.

Think about it this way, could you ever say that a particular course is your favorite if you never played it or saw it in person?  I sure couldn't say that, at least not with any conviction.
Mark

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2005, 10:18:31 AM »
Mark,

I know for a fact that I like Pebble Beach more than any course I have ever played...I have joined two private clubs as a national member in my life without ever playing them before signing up...I could just tell by looking that I wanted to be a member.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 10:19:02 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2005, 10:19:14 AM »
John,
You are right on many holes but the 12th at ANGC???......what about the "venturi effect" ( you know like in carburetors, not Ken V) that is created by the wind in that corner?  you couldn't know that w/o playing there....
could you?
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2005, 10:21:54 AM »
Isn't accurate opinion an oxymoron?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2005, 10:23:41 AM »
Mike,

If it is truly an unpredictable wind effect how could I learn more than what I know now by playing it once or even a dozen times...It might just be me but I just don't learn all that much that often..

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2005, 10:25:36 AM »
John,
Sounds good though...doesn't it?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2005, 10:28:47 AM »
 I can't tell you how many times I've actually gone and looked carefully at holes I've never played and gotten distinct impressions and opinions of them and then gone back and played them and gotten a very different opinion.

You or anyone else, John, can certainly form an opinion of any hole or course by just looking at it never having played it but I for one would never take seriously someone's opinion until they played it. And again, the reason is because my only real reference is my own experiences of just looking at holes vs playing them. Sometimes I'm just amazed how different the two opinions can be.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2005, 10:30:37 AM »
John,
Joining a club without seeing it in person is common.  Lots of people do it all the time.  

Here is one other way to look at it, how would you like to read write-ups about golf courses by people who never saw them in person?  I'm not saying they still wouldn't be interesting to read, but I would put more credence in the opinions of those same people if they saw them first then wrote about them.  

Tom,
I agree with you, playing them is always best!  At least for me.  
Mark  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 10:33:06 AM by Mark_Fine »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2005, 10:31:38 AM »
I can't tell you how many times I've actually gone and looked carefully at holes I've never played and gotten distinct impressions and opinions of them and then gone back and played them and gotten a very different opinion.

You or anyone else, John, can certainly form an opinion of any hole or course by just looking at it never having played it but I for one would never take seriously someone's opinion until they played it. And again, the reason is because my only real reference is my own experiences of just looking at holes vs playing them. Sometimes I'm just amazed how different the two opinions can be.

Tom,

Could you give an example..I just don't get how that could happen.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2005, 10:36:56 AM »
John,
If you don't get how that could happen, you obviously haven't studied your golf course architecture too well  ;)

What was Mackenzie's famous line - Make the hole look hard, but play easy.  If you are just looking, you will never know for sure how hard it is!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 10:37:41 AM by Mark_Fine »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2005, 10:46:27 AM »
Mark,

What is an example of looks hard plays easy..I can't imagine.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2005, 10:49:24 AM »
Thinking of Tom's point - if you say you can evaluate it only after playing, in his case a pull hook, then the logical conclusion is that you can never truly evaluate a course until you have played it in every possible condition, with every possible pin position, with every possible missed shot, putt, etc. I agree that you get to know a course better with each playing, but I don't think that you need to wait until your death bed to form a good opinion!

Mark,

Funny, but I always considered Royal Melbourne my favorite course, long before ever seeing it other than in pix.  Playing it confirmed that for me.

How could that be?  Well, I guess I am intrigued by the visuals and ambiance as much as anything.  And in playing, I loved the farily easy (with 1995 era balls) carry bunkers, the general contour of the greens, etc.  The fact that I played in 2.5 hours (behind a ladies league no less) with my wife (a 130 shooter no less) and broke 80 two of three times probably helped.  The fact that the GM showed me their GPS contour maps after the fact cemented the deal for me.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2005, 11:06:13 AM »
"Tom,
Could you give an example..I just don't get how that could happen."

John:

Perhaps the best example I can give you in recent years is my vastly different opinion of NGLA just looking at it vs actually playing it after not having been there for maybe forty years.

I'm glad you asked because I've probably never thought it all the way through. I think, for me anyway, it's probably somewhat of a spatial thing, most particularly with what I consider to be really good and interesting golf architecture, like NGLA. To bridge that gap between what a hole and a course like that one just looks like and what it's like to play I definitely have to be hitting a golf ball.

I think I have pretty good spatial sense, certainly better inside than outside like most people but with the best kind of architecture or the kind I like best that can be thrown off bigtime and sometimes even both ways although generally things tend to look longer to me than they really are.

Just think of NGLA, for instance, there's just such a variety of cool and interesting and often deceiving stuff going on between you and your target, hole after hole. Sometimes long grass, dips, high ridges, big berms, a water carry that's so deceiving, diagonals, convex, concave sloping ground all around, hazards inside the fairway lines, elevation deception, blindness, you name it.

I have a lot of respect for Shinnecock but this is why I like NGLA better, and why I like the actual architecture better.

Even Maidstone, there's just so much interesting stuff between you and your target---not every hole but a whole lot of them.

I like my course and plenty of others but if I have a complaint about it this would be it---from tee to green its visual connection is pretty standard stuff---not as much interesting stuff between you and your target.

And I think most know how deceptive TV can make a hole look compared to being there and certainly hitting a shot on it.

ANGC is probably a little different because so many of us have seen so many golfers playing it year after year it's a bit easier to relate to, at least to what their games are on the course.

But everyone tells me one's opinion of ANGC is so different when you go there for the first time even after seeing it on TV for decades. And then if you actually play it you probably say occassionally "Tiger hit it where? You're kidding me!"

I had a great time playing Old Head one time in about a 30mph wind and the only problem was the caddie I had had caddied in Tiger's group a few days before and he kept telling me on about every shot where Tiger hit it. At the end of the day, though, I managed to break 80 from the tips in that high wind and Tiger lost two balls and I played the entire round with one.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 11:11:31 AM by TEPaul »

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2005, 11:09:58 AM »
Mark,

What is an example of looks hard plays easy..I can't imagine.

I'm not Mark, but wouldn't Tobacco Rd. work?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2005, 11:13:18 AM »
AG,

Which hole at Tabacco road in between 1 and 18..I promise you those play exactly as hard as they look.   I hope you're not saying that blind shots play easier than they look because you can't imagine the architect provided a bail out you can't see..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 11:13:54 AM by John Kavanaugh »

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2005, 11:22:12 AM »
AG,

Which hole at Tabacco road in between 1 and 18..I promise you those play exactly as hard as they look.   I hope you're not saying that blind shots play easier than they look because you can't imagine the architect provided a bail out you can't see..

John,
I'll take #1 at TR as an example, but there are a bunch.  I AM saying that a course in which the architect shows you a line to an area that you can't see plays easier than it looks, since it looks impossible!

Faith is the belief in things unseen, right? ;)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jason Blasberg

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2005, 11:22:16 AM »
John:

I think that we can get a sense of holes we see played countless times on TV and so all of the back nine at Augusta is imprinted in our golfing minds without ever stepping on the property, however, and I've never been there, all that have tell me television doesn't come close to showing the true movement and undulation of the property.  Therefore, I would say that TV alone cannot give anyone a genuine sense of any hole or course.

I also don't believe walking a course without playing it is a full experience GCA wise.  If an archie does their job well looks will often be deceiving and play (sometimes multiple times) is the only way to fully appreciate any particular hole or course.  

When wind affects play as it does so often on great courses different wind conditions fundementally alter play and therefore bring hazards into or out of play, all of which can only be experienced through play.  

If one were peeling an onion, tv viewing of a hole (even those like 12 at Augusta) would be the very first layer, walking a course inside the ropes would be a second layer, playing once a third and playing multiple times a fourth and so on.

The very best courses reveal new layers after dozens of rounds and that is what keeps us all coming back to them.  

For instance, I've played the 11th at Shinnecock three times now, still have not hit the green and have played it in 5, 4 and 2 (holed out from the front left bunker to a back right pin last time :) ).  It's rapidly becoming my favorite shorter par 3 and it's kicking my butt.  Only through playing the hole multiple times does one fully realize how tough and good it is (truly the shortest par 5 in America).  Even though I watched pro after pro miss that green on Wednesday of the U.S. Open, I didn't realize how it played until I was the one staring at those nasty pot bunkers and that tiny green and the wind was blowing and I had absolutely no idea what club to hit. :)  



JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2005, 11:35:47 AM »

Why aren't these opinions valid and what others might you have...the more obscure the better..

These opinion are valid, so long as you are not so married to them that they cannot change after you play the course/hole. Opinions are great for discussion, and the way you personally develop your opinions keep this discussion group lively, but an educated opinion has to have weight over an uneducated opinion every time.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2005, 11:39:06 AM »

Why aren't these opinions valid and what others might you have...the more obscure the better..

These opinion are valid, so long as you are not so married to them that they cannot change after you play the course/hole. Opinions are great for discussion, and the way you personally develop your opinions keep this discussion group lively, but an educated opinion has to have weight over an uneducated opinion every time.

JES,

I've played Victoria National hundreds of times...Tom Doak toured it once, without playing, I think before completion and I'm sure has seen a few pictures...whose opinion would be "more educated" and carry more weight.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 11:45:22 AM by John Kavanaugh »

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2005, 11:54:27 AM »
 There are certain observations one can make  about holes that have validity  without playing the course.

   I think comments on the routing can be one example. For instance , I read that  Kohler asked Dye to build him a "Ballybunion". But when I saw that the par threes at the Straits  Course were  all positioned along the water  I thought that was a "marketing" ploy. Whereas the threes at Ballybunion are all over the place. Only one even heads toward the sea.

   The difference is dramatic to me. That was my opinion from the TV and I don't need to go to Kohler to confirm it. In fact , that's probably why I won't go there.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 25
Re:Accurate opinions of holes or courses you have never played...
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2005, 12:04:09 PM »
John:

There is no question that you know Victoria National way better than I do.  [It was open when I toured it, but they did not invite me to play, and I didn't ask.]

However, since you ponied up a lot of $ to join it before you'd played any of those rounds, one could also assume that you are predisposed toward liking the design to prove that you weren't an idiot in joining to begin with.

No member's opinion of his home course is without bias, any more than any architect's opinion of one of his designs.  However, in both cases, we do have more facts to go on than the punters who play once and slice into the trees and tell us that hole sucks!

P.S.  That is my normal procedure for whether I play a new course I've gone to see ... whether or not I'm invited to play.  So, are you saying I should never comment on the clubs which are too stuck up to invite me to play?  :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 12:06:34 PM by Tom_Doak »