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Mike_Young

Seems that courses keep going up in construction cost and developers keep paying it.  Private clubs are scared not to pay the highest price they can pay for a job and costs continues to get out of hand.  What single element can be changed to bring some of these cost back in line?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:58:50 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Thompson

Single Element: N
Molecule : H20


Jim Thompson

Gary_Mahanay

Mike,

I think it may be the irrigation systems.  Wall to wall irrigation that is more heads, more pipe, more wire, more controllers, more maintenance.  Then you have one, two, or three deep water wells or buy city water to run through those $200,000 pumps to keep that irrigation system going every night.  All this because the members think that if it's not real green and real soft, it's not any good.

Gary

Mike_Young

The all is one but I meant construction or maintenance elements such as the irrigation Gary mentioned.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Craig_Rokke

In no particular order:

irrigation
name-brand architects, and escalating fees
over-built clubhouses and amenities

Jimbo

Since when, Mike?

Since 1994, the irrigation system has represented 1/4 to 1/3 of the total project cost in the 5 projects I've been involved in.

What it was in the 70's and 80's I haven't a clue.

Unless you include a $1-2 million clubhouse which can be 30-50% of the cost.

For ongoing maintenance, un-mechanized, hand labor would be biggest cost.  So make your next course mower friendly if you want cheaper golf.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:29:15 PM by Jimbo »

Bill_McBride

Jimbo, when did you last see a $1-2 million clubhouse?  Even the most modest club has a 12,000 clubhouse, at today's construction costs that's $4-5 million depending on level of fit out.

I suspect the clubhouse and other non-golf facilities may be the largest single line item at a new private club.

Mike, aren't you a big fan of humidor rooms off the men's grill?   ::)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:28:30 PM by Bill_McBride »

Jimbo

Bill, about 50 miles east of you built in 1998. $2 million, 13000 ft2.  In last 7 years, you're right, that may have doubled.

I am excited for you and your club.  Lets hope the hurricanes take it easy on us for the next decade.

Bill_McBride

$150/SF 7 years ago - not a lot of amenities.  Today - $350 plus amenities.  Construction costs are up wildly, nobody gives me quotes on projects today that are valid over 30 days.  I'm a commercial general contractor so have a feel for this stuff locally.

Please check your IM.

Mike_Young

What would you say to height of cut of grasses.  Cutting greens at today's heights require a more spohisticated green construction,more complicated irrigation, more chemicals.  Same goes for fairways and tees.  And that is before you consider the modern mowers and parts needed to maintain such. And  a significant amount of construction cost and daily maintenance cost could be eliminated by just raising height of cut.
JMO
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Sweeney

The cost of the land. Many people can afford to belong to National, very few can afford to belong to Sebonack due to the $40 MM cost of the land.

TEPaul

Labor!!

That cost has completely sky-rocketed in the golf cost equation. I think it's just tragic that we can't find anybody to work for 25 cents an hour anymore. This country's standard of living has priced our citizens right out of this world. If some of these clubs let the price of a caddie keep rising I'll be willing to do some of that myself. What the hell---I'd love to pick up $80 for five hours of work where I can really bother a few people at the same time.

;)

Now, let me tell you about the H2B program where clubs can bring in Mexicans for the season to work course maintenance. Actually you have to pay those Mexicans the same wage you pay truly good-for-nothing American labor but the good news is those Mexicans work about ten times harder than our slouches. Our super said sometimes he has to go out there at the end of the day to actually convince the H2B Mexicans that it really is OK to stop working. I told the super it's OK with me if he told them that a point right around midnight as long as they promised to be back just a bit before day-break.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 10:15:51 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

Mike,
I think it is probably water.  Land itself is a huge factor.  I wonder what percentage the cost of the land was at Sebonack  :o
Mark

Tom_Doak

Tom Paul:

I disagree with you totally on labor costs.  Maybe middle-man costs, but labor on many courses is being hired out on a contract basis to Mexican workers who are probably not getting paid even minimum wage.  Listening to all the debate this week about Immigration and Guest Worker Programs, I cannot help but think of all these hard-working guys who are getting screwed over by the system.

Mike Y:

I was shocked by the budgets for maintenance equipment on the last two courses I've built, simply shocked.  But I still think the demand for super-sophisticated irrigation systems trumps that.  At Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle, where the local soil was good enough to build greens out of, the irrigation systems were fully 50% of the construction budget.  That might have been necessary in Bandon, Oregon [five months of drought every summer and winds that would dessicate any plant], but it is not true of many other places.

Of course all of this goes back to ridiculous standards being set by clients, combined with poor management.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 10:29:54 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mike_Young

TD,
Yep, I agree on irrigation...it is out of control and I assume your equipment packages were for international courses.
I had one international course where the irrigation materials package was double the cost in the States.  AND a new SandPro cost the client over $23,000.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

Mike:

No, the superintendents at Sebonack and Stone Eagle each put more than $1.5 million worth of equipment on their Christmas lists.

High Pointe's was something like $350,000 if I remember right.

Garland Bayley

Tom Paul,

You really crack me up! Your post was the funniest thing I have read on GCA. I can't believe Tom Doak took you seriously.

Garland
A American high tech worker in an H2B world.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don_Mahaffey

Tom Doak,
If it were your course, how much would you spend on new equipment? You mentioned the 1.5 number but it's tough to know the impact of that without knowing what you think it should be.
Thanks

Steve Okula

Tom Paul:

Of course all of this goes back to ridiculous standards being set by clients, combined with poor management.


Tom,

I'm curious to learn what you mean by "poor management".
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Bradley Anderson

On older and existing golf courses, trees are very costly. The fungicide budget goes up to spray for diseases which are brought on by poor air movement; there is the cost of just cleaning up fallen debris every day, and mulching leaves every fall; the cost of contracting professional tree trimming in the off season; the cost of edgeing around the trees with string trimmers; at my golf course, the mowing of rough is the fourth highest labor category of my budget and at least 50% of that time is spent weaving in and out of the tree line and turning circles around trunks. There is the cost of hand watering fairway edges in the forested areas, because the mature oak trees are sapping the moisture from the soil.

It would be so interesting to hear from the superintendent of Oakmont, how much costs have shifted from the expenses associated with trees to other budget categories, or how much costs have been out-right saved.

I agree with Tom Doak. The cost of equipment is way out of line. A new fairway sprayer costs more than a Jaguar. Its getting ridiculous. But even if you replaced 10% of your equipment a year, that cost would only equate to something between 10 and 15% of the average budget.

I think a big part of the cost of golf course management is in the expectations of the golfers. And we don't fulfill those expectations they will replace us with someone who will.

BCrosby

Are all these expensive irrigation systems and water costs a result of the Augusta syndrome (all emerald green, all the time, everywhere), or is something else going on?

Bob

Joe Hancock

Are all these expensive irrigation systems and water costs a result of the Augusta syndrome (all emerald green, all the time, everywhere), or is something else going on?

Bob

Bob,

Yes.

And, golf carts.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCrosby

Joe -

What do golf carts have to do with irrigation systems and water costs?

Bob

SB

Bradley is correct in that the bottom line is golfer expectations (partly driven by the Augusta syndrome).  It is the demand for perfect green fairways and perfect green rough that forces the costly irrigation systems and expensive mowers.  Just 15 years ago, everything off the green was cut with gang mowers in a matter of minutes.  Now you have to cut fairways so low that you need special fairway units that run $40K and, since they only cut a small path, you need two of them (and the operators) to be continually running.  Rough units are now the same way because people don't like their rough uneven.  Since they don't like it brown, they need irrigation, fertilizer and continuous cutting as well.  The actual cost of each laborer is not that high, it is that you need a year round staff that is double what it used to be.  I see walk mowing at municipal courses, and I still can't figure out how some private clubs are able to spend well over $1M on an 18 hole course on maintenance alone.  A truly impressive ability to waste money.

Large clubhouses certainly are a factor, but only on the daily fee side.  Private clubs have always had monstrous, inefficient clubhouses.  But daily fee courses have gone from nothing but a pro shop to 50K foot edifices with $100K utility bills.

Sorry, golf carts have nothing to do with it.  Sure, paths cost $300K, but they last 10 years, which is only $30K a year.  A drop in the bucket, even if they didn't actually increase revenue (which they do).

Jeff_Brauer

I'll second irrigation systems (They used to be 25% of the budget, now they can be 33-40%)  Cart paths (now typicall $500K) and Maintenance Equipment as culprits.

I'll add maintenance buildings (we used to build $200K sheds - now with environmental regs, as well as the investment in equipment, $400K is the minimum) and one no one has mentioned - Permitting time and expense.  

I would second clubhouses, but as the Lido thread shows, overspending on that is nothing new that has made golf course cost go up recently.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach