Classical features that should die, Vol 1..The Biarritz

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat, you hit on a great reason to continue to build Biaritz greens - with the vast majority of golfers playing public courses, and having no access to private classics, why not give them a chance?  Esp. since for all our discussions, how many are there really out there?  A few dozen from CBM and Raynor at most, and perhaps just as many copies throughout time?  60 or so similar greens out of a universe of 300,000 golf holes is only 0.02%!

As to the Erin Hills one, I like it, from the picture, and wonder why Tom D seems to diss it a bit.  Its on a par 5, where a huge green with contour can make a third shot interesting, it is made from natural contours (minimalist) and its not geometric - inspired by, but not a copy of.....

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Maybe I have a bee in my bonnet about Erin Golf Club.  Frankly, NO green is going to be that interesting to me coming at the end of a nearly 700-yard hole, but a 90-yard green seems like overkill.  Couldn't they decide what was the best part of that green and just use that part?

The only semi-Biarritz I've built had a large pin placement in the front, a medium pin placement in the bottom of the swale, and a tiny spot in back.  It isn't that great of a hole, but at least it's different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wouldn't the biarritz work better if the swale, instead of being dead straight, wiggled like a sine wave or had little moguls in it?  [size=4x]

NO[/color][/size]

If that was the case, there might be some literally impossible putts from one side to the other.  As it exists right now, they're all doable.  

That's not true.

Have you ever putted on a Biarritz green ?

From the swale to an upper plateau ?

From an upper plateau to the swale ?

From an upper plateau to the other upper plateau ?[/color]

You throw that style of green on a 310 yard par 4 and now you've really got something.  Go for it and come up short left when the pin is back right and you've got a squiggly swale that makes it impossible to get close, and now the big swinger looks like a fool -- which is the whole point, no?  Of course, a drive to the left side might catch the squggles and wind up tight, too.

Noone said it couldn't work on other than a par 3 hole.[/color]

Jeff Brauer,

60 may be high.

But, certainly most golfers haven't played a Biarritz and introducing it to a greater number of golfers would seem beneficial for golf and golf course architecture.

[Jim Thompson]

Question for the Biarritz bashers:

Just which of these features / settings are you against:

A pin placement with a puttable depression behind it?

A pin placement that cannot be seen in a valley that aids slightly missed shots?

A pin placement guarded by a frontal puttable depression?

Downhill putts?

Uphill putts?

Long putts?

And the toughest of the all ----

WHY?

Cheers!

JT

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

As an aside, the Biarritz at your facility is much better now that the tree is gone from the drain off area on the left. That area really needs to be firm and dry to allow more shot selections from down there. It must be what....5-7 feet elevation change from there to the top of either side of the swale?

Joe

[Jim Thompson]

Joe,

From the outermost edge of the bent to the far sides of the green it must be at least 8 feet.  We put six drain lines in there this fall and attached them to the run that goes across #4 fairway about 110 out, down the middle of the tree line.  Before the mill rerouted the creek the it actually that tree line was the creek bed.  In fact, I buried a 980 up to the cab during construction right there.  I think I was set up though.  I find it to much of a coincidence that just that day the Dave and Jack told what kind of beer they drank, 'cause we all no the fee for a good chain rental these days.

I think that spill out / collection area is better than the bunker that would normally be there.  I'll be honest, leaving the tree was my idea, but is better without it.  A the tree did was force the player to do the smart thing by running ot out of there.  Its a hoot to watch guys try to flop off the tight cut and chunk it into the swale and come all the way.  Silly Americans  

Did you notice we also took about twenty trees out on the left side except the pin oak at the corner.  It really opens up the left side and baits players into avoiding that bunker on the right edge.

Speaking of trees, the right of nine fairway is also getting a pretty good cutting this winter.  A draw up the right slot and the slingshot into the green should be option there now.

Cheers!

JT

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played real Barritz greens and many modified Barritz greens and if executed well, especially on the 3's and 5's, I've always enjoyed them, if done poorly, what can I say?

[John_Cullum]

  What I'm referring to is a putt that simply cannot be made because in the middle of the swale, instead of a smooth, linear hollow, you have a moguled up bunch of swales that make it literally impossible to make certain putts because the moguls/irregularity found at the bottom of the swale will not allow the ball to go the way you want it to go.

I don't think this is maintainable. You can't run the greens mower across a bunch of moguls. Moguls spaced out enough and soft enoughto cut would be just as "doable"

[RJ_Daley]

First of all, Jim Thompson, it would be wonderful if you had a photo of your Biarritz version at Angles Crossing, if you could post it.  I'm very curious about it.

Second, I will side with Pat on just about everything he said in defending the merits of the Biarritz and that it has multiple playing possibilities, etc., and if not done ad nauseum is still a good choice to consider in certain new designs on a limitted basis.  I definitely agree with Jeff's thought that in public golf, it would be good to give that tier of player a shot at a few interpretations of the Biarritz.

JK, first a while back you asked why Redan greens aren't placed on other than par 3s.  The following opening holes at Blue Mound CC in MIlwaukee ought to get you up here for a look-see.


left side approach to #1, doesn't show Redan bunker well, but it is there.

The redan backstop-kickplate as good as most par 3s in function


#2 par 5 "double plateau" from left side of green, isn't this somewhat of a Biarritz turned 90*?  Another cool double plateau with dramatic swale dividing te green in two, perpendicularly is #15 Waunatonomy.  BMCC has the ominous bunker to the rear that Waunatonomy does not have.  But, swales are a blast if line if 90* or 180.


the same as posted above, #3 approach to Biarritz.  I played it twice at about 190 yards and hit multiple balls testing it each time I played. I tried to fly it to the rear, went over with 5 wood, came up short in swale with same 5 wood choking up and trying to punch it, putted up from the swale.  This one is not mowed green in front of swale, but is cut very apron short to allow putting from even the front of swale.  I saw people chip it from swale too.  I am guessing at least half the folks putt it from bottom of swale however.  More olks seem to chip it from front tier.  But, look at the way the front run-up before the swale really cuts into the apron area from both left and right, leading to the side bunkers.  The second time I played, I tried the stinger 3 iron.  One hit on the front first rise of what would be the front putting green portion if it were mowed that way.  It was very exciting to see it skim there, bound a little up, then down back to the ground before the swale, disappear and reappear just as it was designed to do.  It could also have veered left or right and found the sideboard bunkers, particularly  as they encroach form both sides.  Next I hit a full 3 iron, and hit just short left on the back tier fringe, not on the green, but not down in the left bunker either.  What I'm getting at, is there are a load of ways you can attack this hole, despite George Bahto's interview where he speaks more of the biarritz as defending than you attacking.


finally, the biarritz from the left side showing the depth of swale and bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

By the way ...

Those little "hooks" which guard the front corners of the green at the Biarritz [seen in RJ's photo of Blue Mound] are NOT Raynor or Macdonald's.  Their bunkers were just straight parallel with the sides of the green.  The "hooks" are an innovative idea which many clubs have added since ... when I worked on Piping Rock twenty years ago, Mr. Dye installed the same innovation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

A swale with moguls in it would make it impossible to gauge speed and direction when trying to putt from one plateau to the other.

And, as John mentioned, it would be difficult, if not impossible to maintain.

In short, it's a bad idea.

[Mike McGuire]

Tom Doak-

Did Bluemound consider making the front and swale area of their barritz part of the green?

[Mike Benham]

Shiv -

Like this but in green?

For discussion's sake, skip the moguls part.  How about making the top lines of the swale something other than dead linear horizontally?  

[TEPaul]

"The "hooks" are an innovative idea which many clubs have added since ... when I worked on Piping Rock twenty years ago, Mr. Dye installed the same innovation."

TomD:

I'll be damned. I grew up at Piping and I hadn't been back on that course in years but I made a special trip back there to look closely at that Biarritz. When I saw those things you just called "hooks" I said to myself either I have a pretty bad memory or I never was very observant because I sure as hell did not remember those things on that Biarritz and I noticed them absolutely immediately. So Pete put them in? Well, that would explain my confusion about that.  Thanks.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Who put those same "hooks" in on the Biarritz hole at Fishers?  
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yeah, but Pat, the first part is the whole point!  That's why I like it.  

The second part is the problem.

For discussion's sake, skip the moguls part.  How about making the top lines of the swale something other than dead linear horizontally?  

Think of the problem that would present when trying to putt to hole locations of the upper tier from the lower tier or for putts from one tier to the other.

It would make two putting virtually impossible.[/color]

[Tom_Doak]

Mark F:  I don't know who added the "hooks" at Fishers Island -- probably a superintendent or green committee chairman -- but I would bet you a lot of money it wasn't Seth Raynor.

Mike M:  I haven't been back to Blue Mound in a very long time; Bruce Hepner and Don Placek have done all the consulting work there.  My recommendation to the Raynor courses I've consulted at is NOT to "restore" the front part of the Biarritz to green if they have no evidence that it ever was green -- most do not -- but simply to get it firm and fast so that you can land a ball on it and skip through to the back, or putt or chip off it at your convenience.  In my experience, the front of a Biarritz green is used for pin placements only on Ladies' Day, and the ladies hate being pandered to in that manner!

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

I love the title of this post -- good way to get a discussion going!

First, I think it is a very important point that someone made that until recently, there were very, very few Biarritz holes on public access courses.  Most of my friends still have not played one.  So the novelty is a big factor -- but not for our discussion group!

Second, it is such a unique and dramatic type of design, one is bound to love it or hate it.  I can remember like yesterday the first one I played (#6 at Shoreacres).  Since I was not with a member and did not have a caddy, I had no idea what it was and did not understand the box at the tee with the little peg showing where the flag was.  I hit the ball well, saw it disappear, reappear, and had no idea what was happening.  As I walked up, I found out that the pin was in the front and my ball way back.  But it was fun to try to get it close!

I have taken friends to play at Shoreacres, and recently at Black Creek.  Since they had never played a Biarritz before, they enjoy it.  And like Mr Daley, I have always found Blue Mound #3 to be a fun challenge. Now if they played Biarritz holes a lot, they might find them too geometrical and boring.

Tom Doak, since you are on this thread, I remember when I visited Black Forest years ago that the first par 3 (#4 or #5?) was a long uphill hole with a very large and long green with undulations in it.  Would you characterize it as a Biarritz?

All I remember is that I played it twice, and each time I missed the green.  And in each case I had at least three or four different options for putting, chipping, or pitching to get the ball close to the hole.

I guess that would be one of my tests of a great course, one where there are holes like that where you have a wide choice of strategies, you have to think about the conditions and design, you have to access your ability to hit particular shots, and then you have at it.  When you succeed, it is a very rewarding feeling!

[Mike Hendren]

In my experience, the front of a Biarritz green is used for pin placements only on Ladies' Day, and the ladies hate being pandered to in that manner!

I disagree.  As someone who hits the ball extremely low with nothing on it (i. e., lack of talent) there's the question of whether my ball will stay up or disappear and thereby accelerate away from the hole.  What fun and anticipation.

I haven't played Yale but the front pin would be far more problematic for me than a back location.  

Mike

[George_Bahto]

Tom (D):  I think the "hooks" developed a bit later during Raynor's career so they would not have shown up so much on the earlier courses so perhaps Pete saw what had developed, especially during the Raynor/Banks era, and put them in at PR.

Banks' drawings always had the left bunker curling in more than the left bunker and his drawing and "as builts" had those bunkers that way.

JK: you should play more Biarritz holes ....... playing just a couple of these holes in no way gives you a feel for  a Biarritz hole.

And since we've been talking about inner green contours, most of the Biarritz holes today have eliminated those features. Most of the later-built Biarritz greens had the horseshoe feature (often on a bit of an angle) plus interesting front to back spines on each side and minor features "outside" the horseshoe ......... double and triple-break putting.

further, the average golfer - no, nearly all golfers - play Biarritz holes from middle tees that usually go 185 to 190 ........ you will find they are very hard to play from even that distance.

I think a great variation would be a Biarritz where the green is set on a bit of an angle to the direct line of play.  We have one at Essex County CC (private) in NJ and i think I have only seen one more someplace  (can't remember, but that one had just a little twist ...... hey itz not easy getting old - hah ...... as they say, they memory is the SECOND thing that goes)

[Tom_Doak]

Mike H:  Yale, indeed, would be an exception to what I said.  But it's all carry over water from an elevated tee, which describes none of the other Biarritz holes.

Bill W:  You speak of the 5th hole at Black Forest, which I likened to the 16th at Cypress Point (220 yards) if the ocean were dry.  It is a different par 3 at Black Forest, the 12th, which I was describing in post #52 above as a heavily modified Biarritz.  There was a natural swale there but we did reshape in front of it to see down into the swale.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

I think you'd like the mini-Biarritz Cupp built at Legends Club in Nashville that Mr. Kavanaugh referred to.  It's at the end of a 550 yard hole.  The front is built up a couple of feet with a small false front in the middle.  As a result, the depth of the front tier is effectively no more than 30 feet.  The shallow swale is roughly on grade with the fairway but elongated front-to-back, yielding the largest pinnable area on the green.  Looks like somebody grabbed both ends of a true Biarritz and pulled.  For that reason I call it a stretch-Biarritz.

Mike

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Who put those same "hooks" in on the Biarritz hole at Fishers?  
Mark"

Mark:

I'm not sure I see what you mean by "hooks" on the Biarritz at Fishers Island. Comparing photos of that hole from 1930 to 1999 the hole looks to be pretty much the same including the side bunkering. Maybe Gil Hanse or Donnie Beck knows more.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Wernecke Jr.

The only public course that I know of that had one of the old original Biarritz's was Essex County West, now Byrne Golf Course in West Orange, NJ.

It was originally part of a private 36 hole complex, but, I believe the club sold off the West 18 around the time of the depression.

It resembled Yale's 9th in that the tee was highly elevated above the green.  Unfortunately, that tee was abandoned many years ago by administrators who didn't know a Biarritz from a Beret, but, who's memory could be refreshed with the help of a Beretta.

[Brendan Dolan]

Jeff:

Maybe I have a bee in my bonnet about Erin Golf Club.  Frankly, NO green is going to be that interesting to me coming at the end of a nearly 700-yard hole, but a 90-yard green seems like overkill.  Couldn't they decide what was the best part of that green and just use that part?

The only semi-Biarritz I've built had a large pin placement in the front, a medium pin placement in the bottom of the swale, and a tiny spot in back.  It isn't that great of a hole, but at least it's different.

Sorry I wanted to reply the other day, but had to study so I am just getting around to it now.

Mr. Doak,
I spent last year interning out at Erin Hills Golf Course, and was able to spend a lot of time with the architects, construction company, owner, and all others involved.  I think that it is a little difficult to call a hole boring before one has even seen it.  Yes the tenth hole is a long par 5 from the back tees, but if played from the proper set of tees I believe all golfers will revel in it's challenges.

During the summer months this hole will usually play down wind, and if a long hitter from the back tees places there drive in the proper spot, with firm fairways, they could gain upwards to 100 yards in roll.  I truly believe that it could be possible some days to reach this green for guys like Tiger, Daly, and other long drivers.  Even if one cannot reach the green a number of different lay up options are presented, with different tiers of the Biarritz style green, having better attack angles from different areas.  

First option would be to take it past a couple of bunkers that pinch an area about 120 to 100 yards away from the green.  This would be a good angle to approach any of the pins as it leaves you, looking straight down the green.  Another more risky option is to lay up on the most right side of the fairway, on top of a ridge where one has the best view of the middle depression.  The safest play is to lay it just back of the bunkers at about a 130 to 140 yards from the middle of the green.  From this spot you might have a semi blind approach but your options are endless in how you might play the shot.  The green can be approached with all sorts of different shots.  Running shots will work, and are aided by the left side as the contours help move the ball towards the green.  

As Mike mentioned the green itself was not created, but merely found.  It is roughly 75 to 80 yards long, and about 11,000 to 13,000 sq. ft. in size.  The front tier is the largest followed by the middle tier, and then the back is extremely small and falls away from the golfer a bit.  The whole of the green slopes slightly from left to right, and the tiers are roughly 4 ft. to 3 ft. high.  I’ve spent countless hours around the green shooting grades, preparing drainage pipe, and exit pipes for the green, and I truly feel that novice and professional golfers alike will enjoy the hole and it’s Biarritz styled green.    

Brendan