Classical features that should die, Vol 1..The Biarritz

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it is an aquired taste..which to me means it stinks but you choke it down till you can stand it.  For arguments sake here is George Bahto's description in his feature interview 2:

6. Please discuss your favorite Biarritz hole and the different ways to attack the varied hole locations.

Oh boy, how do you attack a Biarritz? Do you? - might be a better question.

I think of it more as a defensive situation. First we should remember that in nearly every case there was only a single tee built on these holes. Clubs were the ones that built the multiple forward tees and the rear tee is the ORIGINAL tee in nearly every case. Old scorecards often listed these holes at 215-yards or even less but that would be from the middle of the back tees, so add a few more yards to the hole. I would think 225-yards would have been the norm on the earlier courses (excluding resort-type layouts) and 235-yards and up, certainly the length of the later courses.

Attack? - I think not, in those early days. In today's world I think it still is a defensive play - sort of 'let's stay out of trouble and get to the next tee' if you are considering scorecard numbers. If you are thinking how fun a hole this is to play, well it doesn't matter, just be heroic and go at the pin. I would love to 'be allowed' to built a Biarritz at 265-275 yards today and keep the ground extra firm to simulate the hole as it was built in the 19-teen's and 19-twenty's - how it was meant to be.

There are less than a handful of Biarritz greens that have any semblance of putting features that they were originally built with and honestly, the 13th at my home course, The Knoll, has the best surviving green. Others have subtleties but not the strong features. There are also features on the approach areas that we still have intact.

Imagine the difficulty of these beasts when first built - in sheer length and positioning alone, then add to the mix these great undulations - a mighty hole.

It is treated as a target-golf type hole today but it was not meant to be that way - the Biarritz was always supposed to epitomize the ground-game.

All the above says to me is that after close to a century the feature still doesn't work, can't be maintained to work and offers no options from the distance it is intended to work.  note: I shuddered yesturday when reading Jerry Pate is building one in Florida...sorry..but it just needs to be let go..

[BCrosby]

Raynor's and MacD's Biarritz's have never made much sense to me.

The concept makes much more sense on reachable par 4's or par 5's, which is the way the concept is used most often by modern architects.

A tell-tale for how people REALLY feeel about the Biarritz is that it is the least copied of all the MacD template holes.

Bob

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Kavanaugh

Welcome to the site.  Rarely have I encountered a new member who has been so insightful and who has contributed so much.  

[paul cowley]

John, at its worst its triple tier target golf with a premium on being on the same tier as the pin to score or risk three putts.
I'm becoming less enamored with the formalized version and as such more amorphous visions are showing up....and not always on par threes.
The initial concept works well on drivable fours and probably best on reachable fives.

welcome back.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Welcome back John.  Your contributions have been sorely missed on this site.  Let's hope next time you yell fire in a moviehouse the right persons get trampled.

[Mike Hendren]

Barney,

They're a blast.  That's good enough for me.

Mike

[Greg Holland]

I agree with Bob -- it can make a very interesting par 5.  Here at Forest Oaks CC, DL III and crew put in a biarritz green on No. 2, with the dip right in the middle of the green.  It's a 553 yard par 5 from the tips, so it is really interesting watching the pros deciding whether to go for it in 2 or lay up and wedge it close, particularly when the flagstick is on either edge of the dip.

But, I've never seen a Par 3 version in person.

[TEPaul]

"All the above says to me is that after close to a century the feature still doesn't work, can't be maintained to work and offers no options from the distance it is intended to work.  note: I shuddered yesturday when reading Jerry Pate is building one in Florida...sorry..but it just needs to be let go.."

John:

(So, are we all supposed to call you John now?).

The problem you seem to have with golf architecture (as evidenced again by the gist of this Biaritz post of yours) is you can't seem to appreciate or even understand that a lot of the interest and charm of golf course architecture is in its diversity, particularly the diversity of certain things about it from various eras of its rather extraordinary evolution. What you probably need to concentrate more on if you don't like the Biaritz type hole is not criticizing it and recommending that it should 'die out of architecture' but on just not playing golf courses that have one.  

[TEPaul]

I guess I'm so old I may be one of the few on here who as a kid actually remembers advice of the old Scottish pro at my course as he explained to us kids how exactly to try to play two very interesting shots to two very interesting holes. It seems to me these two shots were the only times he actually thought to explain to us how a particular hole and shot should be played.

This was at Piping Rock about 55 years ago and that old Scottish pro's name was Spence. He always wore a fedora cocked at an interesting angle.

Those two shots and two holes were the Redan (#3) and the Biarritz (#9). I distinctly remember as the group of us kids stood on the tee of the Biarritz as Spence showed us how to hit our 4-woods low so the ball would land somewhere in front of the swale and run into it and then through it and up on the green. The thing Spence said was the idea and the interest was watching that ball dip into the swale and disappear for a moment and then reappear as it ran up the other side of the swale and onto the putting surface behind the swale.

Then we'd all try it. Some didn't get the ball to the swale, some of our shots the ball would go into the swale and not reappear but when some of us got the ball to disappear into the swale and then reappear as it ran up the other side onto the greens we'd all scream with delight and Spence would nod his approval.

George Bahto is absolutely right about how the Biarritz is supposed to be played, how it was designed to be played. The Biarritz does not need to die out of golf and architecture as John Kavanaugh suggests----the Biarritz just needs a few more people like old Scottish Spence to show young golfers how to play the "Biarritz shot".

[John Kavanaugh]

What you probably need to concentrate more on if you don't like the Biaritz type hole is not criticizing it and recommending that it should 'die out of architecture' but on just not playing golf courses that have one.  

That would be like asking me to denounce Catholicism just because my brother-in-law is an asshole..

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

How does the Biarritz represent "diversity" ??  It's as formal as Versailles and it has been repeated often already.

[TEPaul]

"That would be like asking me to denounce Catholicism just because my brother-in-law is an asshole.."

John:

Forget about the Biarritz hole or even golf course architecture for a moment----if I could actually get you to denounce Catholicism I would feel far more gratified than getting you to understand the Biarritz or the beauties and interest of the "Biarritz shot".  

[RE Blanks]

  The Biarritz is a long difficult hole.  Raynor, Banks and MacDonald used this hole in most cases with the other 3 three template holes.  The short hole was a test of the short irons.  The Eden and Redan test the mid to long length clubs, and the Biarritz was a test of long length clubs.  The varying lengths of the 4 templates compliment each other and provide balance.  Maybe this is one of the reasons the Biarritz is not often copied.  

Of the ones I have played, only the ones with some elevation change stand out in my mind as visually intimidating holes.
In my opinion a flat Biarritz is not a good Biarritz.  The original hole was played from an elevated tee to a green with nothing in between.  The bunkers right and left should be penal as are the 20 foot traps at Lookout.

[TEPaul]

"Tom P:
How does the Biarritz represent "diversity" ??  It's as formal as Versailles and it has been repeated often already."

TomD;

I didn't say the Biarritz hole represented "informality" in architecture I only said it represented diversity in architecture. I realize it's been copied again on some courses relatively recently. I don't view that as a bad thing even understanding your general dislike of architects using template holes. The Biarritz has probably been copied recently because there's some amount of renaissance going on in golf architecture relatively recently. Are you aware of any Biarritz copies that were done in architecture from say 1947 to say 1990? Basically, I view the Biarritz hole as a most interesting example of the type and style of a particular era in golf course architecture.

I don't think I'd say that the Biarritz hole has been overdone in architecture as perhaps the redan type hole has been. And so when you ask me why I say it represents "diversity", probably the best answer to give you is the same answer that Sir Edmund Hillary gave to someone who asked him why he climbed Mt Everest?

Hillary said; "Because it is there."

[ForkaB]

probably the best answer to give you is the same answer that Sir Edmund Hillary gave to someone who asked him why he climbed Mt Everest?

Hillary said; "Because it is there."

Tom

You are wrong again.  That was Hillary Rodham Clinton when asked why in hell she had married Bill..........

[PThomas]

I like em -- they are different, a tip of the hat to the past, a reminder of the ground game, when the bounce of the ball wasn't considered the end of the world

[Mike McGuire]

Are we talking only of the classic par 3?

If not....#10 green at Erin Hills. No dirt was moved to create this biarritz green. The hole is a par five and i think the green is 90 or so yards long.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why is the Biarritz now a part of all par holes when the Redan seems limited to par 3's...one of my favorite Biarritz's is of course the mini-biarritz at the Legends in Nashville..

[Jim Sweeney]

Bold visuals, multiple strategic possibilities, the thrill ride fear of the ball disappearing then then reappearing: what's not to like about the biarritz?

Surely one is sufficiently inspired and challenged when surveying the ninth at Yale or the excellent seventeenth at Black Creek.

Perhaps not so much on the eighth at Camargo, though I  like the hole.

Long par threes and par fives reachable with long irons or fairway woods- that's where the biarritz belongs, IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  Was that supposed to be an example of good design?  A 600+ yard par five with a ninety-yard-long green with a deep swale in it?  

If they couldn't call that a Biarritz would they have built something like that?  That's what we are discussing here ... is the Biarritz really good architecture or is it just a device which shows that you are one of the cognoscenti?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

What strategic possibilities lie ahead for a 6 handicap when he is 225 yds out from a biarritz green that he does not have from any other style...

[Brent Hutto]

How subtle can the swale be and still be considered a Biarritz?

The green on the opening hole of my new home course has a front shelf that's pretty flat and maybe eight or nine paces deep. Then there's a shallow dip running on a diagonal across the green that's maybe four inches lower than that front shelf and behind that dip there's 12-15 more yards of green gradually rising toward the back. Or something like that, I've only played the hole a handful of times.

It's nowhere near as thrilling as a real Biarritz green but you really would prefer not to be putting from one side of that swale to a hole on the other part of the green. And the hole can be cut just a couple feet on one side or the other of the swale and create a little doubt to keep you from putting boldly past the hole.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
You are wrong again.  That was Hillary Rodham Clinton when asked why in hell she had married Bill.........."

Rich:

Good one, but you're wrong too. That answer is the only true one about why either Bill or Hillary thought to run for the US Presidency in the first place. Those two can never be expected to tell the truth though. I expect that question of why she wants to run for the US Presidency will be asked of Hillary soon and I expect her answer will be something like;

"Because the Biarritz hole is there."


 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Brent:  I put swales in greens all the time, at all sorts of different angles.  One of the greens at Quail Crossing (the 15th) has a DEEP swale dividing the green 2/3 left, a pin in the dip, and a tiny shelf on the right.  That was INSPIRED by the Biarritz ... but it's not the Biarritz.

[PThomas]

if such a green is too big, doesn't that take away the run-up nature of it; i.e., can't one just fly the ball to the hole and keep it there if there's lots of room?